Atheists In Kenya (AIK)

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Story by Adam Sham ~ How he met Jesus


This story has been posted by Adam Sham on Facebook (Kenyan Free Thinkers page). Please read …

I would like to share a story with you, in hopes it will change your life like it has changed mine. A few months ago, my life hit rock bottom. I was addicted to smoking, drugs, alcohol, I was severely depressed and everything in my life was spiraling out of control. I was also a professed Atheist.

I didn’t believe in anything I couldn’t see or hear. I didn’t even believe in an afterlife. I tried everything to fix my life, various support groups, support from family and friends, even having other people spend my money for me so I couldn’t acquire drugs or alcohol. Now, I don’t know if you suffer from any of these problems, but I know there has to be some problem, somewhere in your life you need help with.

I’m going to share with you now how I found my solution. One night, bored, I desired to browse the internet. I came across some Christian website with the “sinners prayer” on it. The description said if I say this prayer and mean it in my heart, that Christ would come into my heart, save me from all the problems afflicting my life, and literally live inside of me.

I read this and thought to myself…wouldn’t it be cool if this was real, if I could just say a few words and make all the problems go away. Of course I thought it was all BS, but I figured I’d try it, because I already tried everything else with no success, why not just speak a few words and see what happens? Now, I never believed in God, the devil, Heaven, or Hell, but in the back of my mind I was seriously hoping this would work, this was my last shot to get things going right in my life again, so I said the prayer, asked God to get rid of my addictions and depressions, and just to make me happy and hopeful again, and I went to sleep.

The next morning I woke up entirely rejuvenated. I didn’t wake up tired and sluggish from doing drugs the previous night, I was happier then I had ever been in my entire life, I felt so bright and full of love and happiness that I thought it was just a mental thing, but it wasn’t, it was real, this actually worked, I said a prayer and it worked.

I knew it had to be the prayer, because I also had absolutely no desire to do any of the drugs I was previously addicted to, I literally quit everything that same day cold turkey, no relapses, no withdrawals, nothing at all. I was completely free from every single addiction that had previously plagued my life. I became a better person that day then I ever was in the passed. This works, my friend. This whole God, Jesus thing, it’s all real, very real.

This occurrence changed my life forever, and now I’m sharing this story with you, in hopes you can benefit from it, and it can change your life like it did for me. I am not a religious fanatic, I’m just an everyday person that went out on a limb and called out to God for help, and he answered, much to my disbelief. I’m sharing this story with you now, because I know someone is going to read this, do what I did, and have their life completely changed for the better. I do not know if you have accepted Jesus as your lord and saviour or not, but if you haven’t done so yet, I pray that you will take this story seriously and do what I did, because this is all 100% true.

If you would like to do this, here is the prayer I prayed, word for word: “Heavenly Father, I know that I have sinned against you and that my sins separate me from you. I am truly sorry. I now want to turn away from my sinful past and turn to you for forgiveness. Please forgive me, and help me avoid sinning again. I believe that your Son, Jesus Christ, died for my sins, that He was raised from the dead, is alive, and hears my prayer. I invite Jesus to become my Savior and the Lord of my life, to rule and reign in my heart from this day forward. Please send your Holy Spirit to help me obey You and to convict me when I sin. I pledge to grow in grace and knowledge of you. My greatest purpose in life is to follow your example and do Your will for the rest of my life. In Jesus’ name I pray, Amen.”…

I am merely sharing this story in hopes that it will change your life like it did mine, because God loves you so much, all he wants to do is help, and if he helped me, I KNOW he can help you. This seriously saved and changed my life forever, and I hope and pray that it will do the same for you. Say the prayer, get a Bible, start reading, learn about God, repent of your sins, pray and be saved. I hope this story helps you in some way. God bless you & keep you. Jesus is returning very very soon and we must all repent and live holy and obediently to be prepared!

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43 comments on “Story by Adam Sham ~ How he met Jesus

  1. makagutu
    November 11, 2012

    wow what an interesting story, but i need to know how did he become an atheist? was he an implicit or explicit atheist?
    i see in this story by a man who really wanted to believe the bronze age story is true. i don’t know whether he will read the comments, but i want him to tell us at what point did he suspend reason and critical inquiry and what does he say about the many people who attend AA and still suffer relapses, is god choosy in healing peeps? was he so special and why would god be more concerned with his drug addiction instead of eradicating world hunger?

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  2. Harry
    November 11, 2012

    this guy is not an atheist. he is a believer.

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  3. Nick
    November 11, 2012

    Adam, it is commendable that you were able to overcome your problems with alcoholism, drug abuse and depression. I congratulate you for it. But how does this experience of yours count as evidence for the existence of a god? It is not evidence at all.

    For one, it is a subjective account of what happened to you. We have no way to verify your story. We have only you to tell us about it.

    Secondly, other people have also overcome addictions, and done this without resorting to a religious explanation. Some attend support groups, some do it cold turkey, some have to be checked into rehab centres. Either way, kicking a bad habit is not evidence for a god.

    Finally, I notice you attribute your turnaround to the power of prayer. I notice you say you tried different support groups and they didn’t work. But they do work for large numbers of people and have helped many overcome their problems. For some however, these groups don’t always work and they relapse. I’m sure that if you asked some of these people who relapsed they would tell you that they pray to overcome their problems. The effect of prayers does not always seem to be as dramatic as in your case. I’m sure you would also agree that religious as well as non-religious people can fall into addictive behaviour. So we cannot take the experience of one person as evidence of the power of prayer.

    So while your experience is certainly interesting, it is not convincing proof for anything supernatural.

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  4. Adam Sham
    November 11, 2012

    @ Makugutu, I was born a Muslim but never practiced it. My mother converted me to Roman Catholicism as a child which I never really cared for either, and I eventually declared myself an Atheist due to “lack of proof”. This occurred the Spring of 2011. Firstly, I don’t know why God chose me and not someone else. I’m not God so I couldn’t tell you that. All I know is that I called out to Him and He answered, when I said the prayer as an Atheist. For those saying it is not proof of a God, you’re only saying that because you didn’t experience what I did. How can an answered, unexplainable, miraculous prayer NOT be proof of a God? I know people have quit things without God, but I couldn’t, and calling out to a God I never believed in was my last chance to get things right, and it worked. I can’t expect anyone to believe what I say if they haven’t experienced it for themselves. You can debate and speculate over philosophy, metaphysics, existentialism and more, but it won’t prove a thing. All it is, is useless chatter. If you want REAL proof, so you can have a born again experience like this and KNOW for yourself that God is real, do what I did. Call out to Him and ask Him to show you how real He is. Jesus is a gentleman, and He stands at the door and knocks, and waits to be invited in. He doesn’t break the walls down. We have to choose to love and accept Him, because forced love is not true love at all. This is why He gives us free will, so we can make a decision in life whether we want to accept or reject Him, a decision which comes with consequences. This is definitely not my only experience with God. When you become born again and filled with the Holy Spirit, God is alive to you. He speaks with you everyday, so it’s impossible for me to say He doesn’t exist even if I wanted to. God literally answers my prayers and performs miracles for me everyday. I have seen too many miracles to count, done in the name and authority of Jesus. I have seen stage 4 cancer and terminally ill patients healed. I once prayed for a terminally ill man and he was healed. I have seen limbs grow back, bones shift and replace themselves, and many other things. God wants a relationship, not a religion. He has no religion and does not look for religion, all He looks for is the covering of the blood of His Son, that’s it. A true salvation relationship with God requires 1 on 1 intimacy. A relationship in which He guides you, loves you, speaks to you, teaches you, leads you, sanctifies you and molds you into His image and likeness everyday. This is what He wants, not religion. He hates religion, and it was one of the reasons Jesus was killed in the first place. I don’t know how you can say the Bible is a Bronze Age book of fairy tales when it was written 2000 years ago and is accurately predicting everything that is happening today. The Bible has already been proven time and time again to be 100% historically accurate. We are in the end times and everything Jesus said would happen, is happening. Rivers and lakes turning blood red, massive fish, bird and animal deaths in the millions, a MASSIVE spike in earthquake activity, global government, people coming claiming to be Him and deceiving many, and more. All of it is prophecied in the Bible. Did you know that there are many books missing from the Bible as well? Books like Enoch and Jasher. Satan had these books removed because they are scientifically accurate and contain much missing information. In the Book of Enoch, He was caught up to space by God to record what he viewed in the solar system. He wrote down how the earth is round and spherical, and how the sun and moon are in orbit, among the other planets and stars. Science just recently discovered these things, including the fact that the sun is orbiting the center of the Milky Way. Enoch wrote about these things thousands of years ago, predating the Old Testament. The book of Zechariah prophecied about nuclear weapons being used in the future. You will never understand scripture the way it is meant to be understood unless you have the Holy Spirit inside of you, revealing to you it’s secrets. You can read and study scripture as a scholar for a multitude of years, and then that same person can re-read the Bible after becoming born again, and it will be an entirely different book. All of scripture is prophetic and has hidden meanings. This is why the Bible says the Gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing. They are void of the Spirit and the scriptures remain a mystery to them. God knows you’re heart, and if He sees you are studying the Bible just to find new ways to mock it and bring up points you don’t understand as lies and foolishness, why would He open up you’re understanding for it? Basically what I’m saying is this. If you want to meet God like I did, simply call out to Him and seek Him in prayer till He comes. Accept His Son into you’re life. Find out for yourself God is real instead of debating it. Just go to the source and get the proof from Him. He loves you more then you could imagine and wants to reveal Himself to you, but you need to take that 1st step and go to Him. Let me know if you have any other questions.

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    • makagutu
      November 12, 2012

      Thanks Adam for taking time to respond to my questions and also for attempting to convert me to follow your bronze age book. You say the bible has been proven to be 100% historically correct, my question is where is this report or book that confirms the bible to true as you want it to be?
      You say unless god gives you the holy spirit, you can’t understand his word, why then doesn’t he give it to everyone especially those of us who are committed to applying reason in our lives? Why is he so choosy?
      As Nick has said, we can’t verify this you call experience and it is highly subjective and not repeatable. Now you say you have seen people with stage 4 cancer healed after your prayers, amputees regrow their legs; is this repeatable, testable?
      I can see you declared yourself an atheist without doing any enquiries. allow me to ask, in what age bracket are you?
      you must be such a special minion to god that he performs miracles just for you alone while we have children dying from starvation, natural disasters, being raped and so on? your god really must be without priorities.
      i don’t know how well you have studied the bible, but if you have you’ll notice all you call prophecies happened after the fact. there is no fulfillment of prophecy so to speak.

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      • Nick
        November 12, 2012

        Makagutu, I also call BS on the claims that he has seen limbs grow back.

        “I have seen limbs grow back, bones shift and replace themselves, and many other things.”

        If it did happen, it must have been one of the most extraordinary cases in medical history. Some doctor somewhere must have done a case study on it. There must be a paper somewhere written on the occurrence.Post the evidence here and let us judge it for ourselves. Saying you saw it happen is not good enough.

        While I agree that philosophical arguments do not count as evidence, they give a basis for knowing whether it is rational to believe in something or not.

        As for Adam’s other arguments, they are not new. Miracles, the historical and prophetic accuracy of the bible, subjective experience, conversions to christianity. They have all been dealt with before on this forum. I urge him to go through the comments section on the “What we do” page and see for himself that these same arguments have already been presented and refuted.

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  5. Adam Sham
    November 12, 2012

    I’m all for having a discussion but let’s keep this civil, please. Saying that God doesn’t exist because there is evil in the world is like saying personal trainers don’t exist because there are obese people in the world. A personal trainer can’t help you lose weight when you refuse to eat and train how he tells you to. God can’t help you if you refuse to acknowledge He exists, turn your back on Him, hate and mock Him and His people, do exactly what He says not to, and love all the things He hates. Why would He have any reason to help you if you hated Him so much and never gave Him a chance? God can’t help you unless you are living for Him, because sinning is giving the devil authority over you. There are laws in the spiritual realm just as there are laws in the physical. In the spiritual, you only have 2 masters and authorities to choose from, God or satan. If you live for God and obey Him, He is your master, He has authority over you’re life and He guides you and controls you. When you reject God and live in sin, you live for satan, and he has authority over you’re life and controls it. The Bible clearly says that satan is the one running the world and controlling it. Yes God controls the big picture, but satan has rightful authority to rule this world after he deceived Eve in the garden. Mankind was given the authority to rule the world, and when they obeyed satan instead of God, that authority was passed to him. When I say you can’t understand His word, I am speaking of the inner workings of His word, it’s secrets and hidden meanings. They are everywhere. Anyone can read the Bible and grasp the basic message of salvation through the death and acceptance of Jesus for forgiveness. God is not choosy at all, you’re just making speculations, how can you say He is choosy when you don’t even believe in Him, much less know anything about Him like I do? He is not choosy at all, nor does He have partiality or favoritism. He would give you the Holy Spirit if you accepted Jesus and asked for it, it’s as simple as that. I received the Holy Spirit right after saying this prayer. How do you know God isn’t feeding the poor? I have heard many testimonies about angels and even Jesus Himself showing up to feed the poor, but I won’t even divulge into that because I know you will not believe it anyway. How do you know what God is doing in the world? Are you Him? I don’t understand how atheists say there is no proof for God when the proof is right in you’re face. There is proof, you just choose to deny it. I’m living proof of God. Why would I lie about any of this? Do you have any idea how much I have sacrificed for God and how much I am hated, belittled, and persecuted for my faith? The Christian walk is not an easy one by any means but I stick with it because I know it to be true. I don’t know how many times I have to say this. We can debate back and forth for years but it will not prove a thing. I don’t know any of you nor can I prove to you what I’m saying is true. All you have to do is SEEK GOD IN PRAYER AND ASK HIM TO REVEAL HIMSELF TO YOU. This simple step will put all debate to rest. But many, and probably you 2 as well will refuse to do it. So there’s not much more I can do. The evidence is everywhere, NDE’s, testimonies like mine, healings, etc, it’s everywhere, but you just choose not to believe it because it does not fit you’re spectrum of justifiable evidence. I can’t prove anything I’m saying is true, and I know this, because I experienced it and not you. Which is why I tell you to GO TO GOD AND SEEK HIM FOR ANSWERS. If you can’t AT LEAST do that, this conversation is going to go nowhere fast, as all my other conversations with Atheists. How do you expect for me to prove this over the internet using only my keyboard? You all obviously have hardened hearts and the only reason you are even responding is to try and disprove everything I say. These conversations are pointless because I can’t prove a thing to you, only God can. He is the only one who can give you the proof and evidence you are searching for, and if you can’t go to the source and get it straight from Him then there is no point in continuing this.

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  6. Adam Sham
    November 12, 2012

    And yes, of course the miracles are repeatable. Why would God only perform a healing miracle once and never do it again? You need need to find someone with the gift of healing, and a person in need of healing.

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  7. Adam Sham
    November 12, 2012

    Regarding the limbs growing, I am not referring to amputees, I am referring to people who have 1 leg/arm shorter then the other, causing pain throughout the body. Maybe I should have phrased it differently. I witnessed the limbs grow out instantly as they were prayed over. There’s plenty of healing miracle videos on YouTube, as well as heaven and hell testimonies all around the world, look them up. Watch them with an open mind before you just declare them as BS. Also you should start looking up modern day prophecies. God has led me to a few trusted prophets that are legit. They have already prophecied things that have come to pass. You need to look at other sources outside the scientific spectrum for proof. God is not limited by science and He walks and works in all other areas of life as well.

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  8. Adam Sham
    November 12, 2012

    I’m going to link a bunch of testimonies and NDE’s and such where people saw heaven and hell and met Jesus. Not all of them are NDE’s but most are. These testimonies are from people from all religions and walks of life, and many of them didn’t even believe in Jesus or God, and they met Him. Please take the time to watch them all before responding.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybB4gqx5VQI Part 1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q58xvtbDfJM&feature=relmfu Part 2



    These are just a few to get you going, there are literally thousands more. This doesn’t even cover healing testimonies and delivering testimonies like mine. You really think a Bible that has prophecied and predicted things 2000 years ago including the orbit of the sun and moon, nukes and more is false? You think I’m lying, and all these other people who never believed in God are lying? You really think this perfectly designed world we are living in with our perfectly designed bodies and everything needed to sustain us was the result of chance and not intelligent design?

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  9. Harry
    November 12, 2012

    Let me finally get down with this, Adam and say that i am an Atheist. I am proud to be an Atheist. Meaning i do not believe in the supernatural. I do not think god exists. God is a creation of men. Men, since long time ago, have always tried to explain things they cannot understand by creating gods.

    Let me say that as an Atheist, i have problems too. Huge problems. Am not a drug addict, but i have habits that i would like to get over. Habits that are harming me as a person. When i think of those habits, i think of the solutions in terms of which professional counsellor can i consult, are there people who are trying to fight with similar weaknesses? I talk to them. And i get solutions. I guess if i was a drug addict, i would consider a rehab. I have a brother who is a drug addict, and am not sure that simple prayer you recommended will do wonders for him. If it will, i will welcome you to our house to make him pray. I doubt it will work. Am sure you also know it might not be the solution to his problems.

    Adam, in a sense you are using Jesus and God as a scapegoat for your new found belief, and attributing it to the prayers. I still think you are deluded. The worst thing is that you want people to take your story, and use it as a way of believing in Jesus and God. And this is where you will get challenged by those of us who utilize some rationality in arriving at conclusions.

    Let me move on and talk about god and jesus and how they came across to help you. It would appear that the prayer was the game changer. That simple prayer was what god and jesus were waiting for to change you. Why in your view did god and jesus not see you having a huge problem with drug addiction and just decide to sort you out? Without that single prayer, was god going to come to your rescue? Are there things that your god can resolve without us praying? My mom, a staunch and prayerful christian is diabetic. What makes your prayer special over the many prayers my mom does every day to cure her of her diabetis. I could repeat your prayer all over and try to get god to resolve a couple of my problems as well. Am sure god is not just interested in drug addicts. I mean, we have folks with cancer, folks who are not working, folks who are HIV +, we have all sort of problems. What makes your particular case unique? Drug addiction!

    Just to share with you my experiences, i lost a job three years ago. I basically lost everything. I was on loans, i had a son who could not go to school. I was hitting rock bottom. I even started drinking too much. But what i did is put myself together, decided to look for a job, and i eventually got one. I did not pray. I simply did what i was supposed to do. I am still getting back on my feet, without Jesus. Without God.

    Adam, you have to give us better reasons as to why you think Jesus and God matter in our lives, but from what you have written, you belong to the usual religious characters who use such stories as a bait to try and convince the weak to blindly follow christianity.

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  10. Adam Sham
    November 12, 2012

    I’ve answered all of these questions in my previous posts. I’ve already mentioned that God gives us free will to use. He won’t force His help on us unless we first open ourselves up to Him and ask Him. I’ve already answered all these questions. I can’t stress it enough that you’re telling me to prove to you God is real using a keyboard. It’s not going to happen. You’re never going to get the proof you want until you seek God in prayer and find out He is real for yourself. PLEASE WATCH THE VIDEOS I POSTED. Can you just take some time to ask sincerely ask God if He is there? I don’t understand how you can say I’m deluded, I really don’t. Denying something you know nothing about is the highest form or ignorance. You obviously haven’t experienced what I have and you never will until you seek God. I’ve been giving you the way to get proof all along. You’re looking at me for proof when you should be looking at God. Please read EVERYTHING I wrote and WATCH THE VIDEOS before responding. You’re all asking the same questions over and over, I’ve already addressed all of these things. I can guarantee you with absolute certainty you are wrong, God is real. I PROMISE you this. Just seek Him with an open heart and He will come to you. Please.

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  11. Adam Sham
    November 12, 2012

    Also, for all of you who believe Jesus never even existed, please watch

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  12. Adam Sham
    November 12, 2012

    That proves that the Bible is 100% historically accurate. And like I said DON’T RESPOND UNTIL YOU READ EVERYTHING I WROTE AND WATCHED EVERY VIDEO I LINKED. PLEASE. I feel like I’m talking to myself here.

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  13. Harry
    November 12, 2012

    I will take time and look at the videos. Wait for my opinion about it. But again, i fail to understand how one seeks god.

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  14. Nick
    November 12, 2012

    Ok. Adam, you started your last post with a bad analogy. The example you gave is not the same as if the trainer was omnipotent and omnibenevolent. An all powerful, benevolent trainer would be able to see that you needed help and help you, especially if he created you that way. Anyway, personally I don’t hate god. I don’t believe he exists, so I can’t love or hate him. I am indifferent.

    Your answer to the problem of evil is not satisfactory. Are you trying to tell us that it is only unbelievers who suffer? Of course not. Suffering is an equal opportunity phenomenon, it does not discriminate between believers and non believers. You make the argument about suffering as a result of free will, but then how would you explain the suffering of infants? What choices have they made in this world that would lead to their suffering? It’s true that a lot of the evil in the world is visited upon people by other people, but how would you explain unnecessary suffering? How would you explain events like hurricanes and tsunamis that kill thousands and do not discriminate between adults and children? If you say that suffering has a redemptive purpose, then why did Jesus allegedly die for our sins? What was the point if we continue to suffer? If god is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, surely couldn’t he devise a way to end unnecessary suffering?

    I do not accept the idea of personal revelation as a requirement for understanding scripture. If a text is supposed to be sacred and divinely inspired then the inspiration for salvation should come from within the text. How else can I get the ideas before reading the text? That’s counterintuitive. What would you think if I asked you to first accept Shakespeare into your heart before reading Romeo and Juliet? And that if you did not you could not possibly understand the play? You would think I was mad. But that’s precisely what you are saying. First accept the ideas, then read the book. If things really work that way then the bible is completely unnecessary.

    You ask how we know what god (if he exists) is doing. We don’t. How do you know? I’m always suspicious of people who say they have some special line of knowledge that other people do not. You also assume that we were never people of faith. Here I can only speak for myself. I was a christian for a long time and I know what you are talking about. I think many others here were once religious as well. You say the christian walk is not an easy one? Try being an atheist in Kenya. And you don’t know that the christian way is true, because you do not seem to have any evidence for it. You believe it to be true based on faith.

    For every so called miracle healing that cannot be substantiated there are many proven frauds. You mentioned you had observed miracles happening. I am not talking about cancers, they have been known to go into remission, with or without prayer. You made a specific claim, that you saw a withered limb growing back. All I’m asking for is some kind of evidence for the same. Not a you tube video, we all know how childishly easy it is to manipulate video. Some kind of documentary confirmation, say a medical case study, or a well documented, independently reported happening. Not a personal testimony. I will research the claim for myself and draw my own conclusions.

    As for all these videos you’ve posted, I will say it again until you understand it. PERSONAL TESTIMONIES DO NOT COUNT AS EVIDENCE. CONVERSIONS AND NDEs ARE NOT EVIDENCE. THEY ARE SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCES THAT CANNOT BE VERIFIED BY ANYONE ELSE. I will not be watching them because I have seen many similar videos before, and they all promote the same ideas. You should also be aware that neuroscience has already provided convincing evidence that NDEs and OBEs happen in the brain. Application of electric currents to certain parts of the brain has been shown to produce OBEs. Drugs such as ketamine have also been shown to produce experiences similar to those of a person undergoeing a NDE. I could also post links here to a dozen videos supporting what I say, but then we would just be throwing links at each other. So I won’t do that. If you are interested you can find the information easily enough, but I suspect you won’t bother to look. If you look and cannot find it ask me, I will be happy to direct you to it.

    I’ve not said that you did not have the experience that you say you did, I was not there so I can’t argue with that. I just told you why I don’t believe in the conclusions you have drawn from your experience. Once again, I will ask you to read the previous posts on this forum. You will see the same arguments you are making, and how they have been answered before.

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    • Harry
      November 12, 2012

      Nick ~ brilliant response!

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    • kenyanBright
      November 19, 2012

      Fantastic response, and very well said Nick. Someone put it very well, ‘The plural of anecdotes is NOT data’. The imaginative power of the brain is very well known. Using an NDE as ‘proof’ of Hell’s existence as shown in one of his videos is truly ridiculous! It’s kind of like me dreaming of Owning a kingdom or being the messiah and waking up and telling everyone it is true. Look, my dad underwent surgery and was put under and it made him dream fantastical things which all felt very real until he came to and discovered it was his mind only. When you’ve bled massively and you are under the influence of anaesthetics, you’re mind can easily conjure up many things, always a fanciful extension of ideas you interacted with in real life. This does not make the ‘dream’ true however ‘real’ it felt.

      As for the idea of conversions and fantastic turn-arounds being ‘proof’ of Christianity’s trueness, this very common argument shocks me for its’ ubiquity despite its’ woolliness. If that meagre standard of evidence is to be accepted, then my best friend who is agnostic and yet overcame weed and alcohol addiction through 6 months of rehab is proof that agnosticism is true, as well as all the Muslims, Hindus, Budhists etc that have ever managed to turn their lives around. Look, Religion is a crutch of the human condition, people too weak to accept the vagaries of life use Jesus or any other religious icons as guide rails rather than just their reason and self preservation instincts, I for one have no such lust for gods in my life! 🙂

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  15. Adam Sham
    November 13, 2012

    This is exactly what I’m talking about. You deny the evidence without even looking at it, typical of an Atheist. Do you even know what an NDE is? It is NOT someone who came close to death and had some brain induced drug trip, it is people that were pronounced clinically dead, their soul left their body, they met and conversed with God, demons etc and physically walked through heaven and hell. I can’t believe how you can say a drug, or the brain can produce that when the brain was SHUT DOWN. These people were brain dead and pronounced clinically dead according to their doctors and surgeons. The Brain CANNOT make God and Jesus/demons appear in front of you and make them have literal conversations with you. The brain cannot make you look at, touch, feel and see them. Since you say it’s a brain induced trip, then that would mean that each experience would be that way only to the one experiencing it. Why then, did EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE PEOPLE MEET JESUS AND SEE HEAVEN AND HELL? The MAJORITY of them never believing in God or the afterlife in the first place? You can’t use the argument that these people were “religious” and the brain is just duplicating the things they have come to learn and accept in life, because the majority of them going through these things did not believe in what they were experiencing. These videos are not just people seeing a bright light or going through a tunnel or whatever, these are first hand accounts of standing before God and conversing with Him, physically seeing heaven and hell and interacting with it with all you’re empirical senses and more. You’re brain cannot draw landscapes resembling heaven and hell around you, especially when you never believed in them and you’re brain is NOT EVEN WORKING. It’s amazing how you’re so dead set on God not existing when you aren’t even listening to my evidence or doing the steps I told you, that are required to meet Him.

    No, the personal trainer analogy is not bad, it’s bad to you because you don’t understand how the spiritual world works, like I do. God CANNOT intrude on you’re free will unless you first open yourself up to Him and ask Him. Like I said, Jesus stands at the door and knocks, and waits to be invited in. He doesn’t break the door down. YES, PERSONAL TESTIMONIES COUNT AS EVIDENCE, AND IF YOU JUST LISTEN AND DO WHAT I TELL YOU TO DO, YOU CAN HAVE A PERSONAL TESTIMONY OF YOU’RE OWN. BUT YOU IGNORE THAT PART OF WHAT I’M SAYING AND JUST CONTINUE TO PRESENT YOU’RE OWN BELIEFS. I really don’t know how many times I have to say that. Are you reading ALL the things I’m writing or do you just read and rebutting what you “think” you can disprove? And ONCE AGAIN, like I said, just because testimonies don’t fit into you’re “personal” spectrum of evidence, does NOT mean they did not happen. I never believed in these testimonies either and I had one myself. That’s how I know God is real, because I EXPERIENCED HIM, and I do so still EVERY SINGLE DAY. That is how I know I’m right and you’re wrong. Which is why I still continue to have this useless conversation.

    Allow me to ask you atheists a few questions for once. Since you all seem to use “logic, common sense and reasoning”, please try to answer these:
    1- How can an atheist who never believed in God, call out to a God He never believed in and have the physical things he asked for out loud happen to him?
    2- How does years of hardcore depression and addiction INSTANTLY disappear after asking God to remove them if He didn’t exist? And don’t give me that crap about the placebo effect, it’s nonsense.
    3- If God wasn’t real, then how did He fill me with the Holy Spirit, change my life, my attitude, my outlook, my personality, my love for mankind and life just as quick as He took away my addictions and depressions? How did the Holy Spirit fill me and give me spiritual gifts?
    4- If God is real, how does He STILL continue to answer all my prayers? How can things that I ask for out loud to God when I’m the only one in the room happen? If He isn’t real then who is the one speaking to me teaching me and showing me all these things?
    5- If He isn’t real then how does He communicate with me all day everyday?
    6- How is the Bible giving us scientific evidence about the solar system thousands of years ago when it is only being proven in this day and age? How could people thousands of years ago view the solar system from space and speak about things that we are just now discovering with technology? How is the Bible accurately prophecying every single thing that is happening today with 100% precision? If you open up a newspaper and the book of Revelations side by side, they are in total agreement.
    7- How do you explain the millions of testimonies all around the world of people personally experiencing Jesus themselves? How can all these people like myself who never believed in God in the first place be actively experiencing Him? How are millions around the world meeting Jesus and nobody else? Why not Allah/Shiva/Krishna/Buddha and all them? Why is it ALWAYS Jesus and nobody else? God promised to pour out His spirit on all people who call to Him in these last days. That is why He answered my prayer, and that is why He answered the prayers of all these other people. And I’m going to say this for the last time. STOP LOOKING AT ME FOR EVIDENCE I CAN’T GIVE YOU. ALL I HAVE IS A KEYBOARD. GO TO GOD AND ASK HIM TO GIVE YOU A TESTIMONY LIKE MINE IF HE IS REAL. TELL HIM TO PROVE HIMSELF TO YOU SO YOU CAN KNOW THE TRUTH FOR YOURSELF. CAN DO YOU THAT? Everytime I write that, which I have in almost every response, nobody comments on it. GOD IS THERE, RIGHT NOW, LISTENING TO THIS CONVERSATION AND READING IT. I FEEL LIKE I HAVE TO TYPE IN ALL CAPS BECAUSE YOU GUYS ONLY READ WHAT YOU WANT AND NOT THE WHOLE THING. GOD IS RIGHT THERE, RIGHT NOW, AND YOU CAN EXPERIENCE HIM RIGHT NOW. WATCH THE VIDEOS I POSTED. ASK GOD IF HE IS THERE, SEEK HIM IN PRAYER AND LET HIM GIVE YOU A MIRACULOUS TESTIMONY LIKE HE DID FOR ME. ASK HIM TO GIVE YOU THE HOLY SPIRIT. ASK HIM TO PROVE TO YOU HE IS REAL AND GIVE YOU ALL THE EVIDENCE YOU NEED TO BELIEVE. HE WILL DO IT IF YOU ASK HIM. WILL YOU DO IT OR NOT?

    Like

  16. Adam Sham
    November 13, 2012

    And please for the love of God watch the videos, I promise you they aren’t the typical testimonies of lights and tunnels and clouds that you’ve seen in the past. These are entirely different, and not all of them are people who died and left their bodies, there are Muslims who met Jesus face to face after asking Him if He was real. They were alive and functioning properly when they met Him. You can experience God in this way too if you just open yourself up to Him and genuinely seek Him in prayer.

    Like

  17. j.w
    November 13, 2012

    Adam Sham, In deed I also and millions of others have had a life changing encounter with the risen Jesus Christ. Welcome to the Kingdom of Jesus Christ. Submitting to His Lordship in your life is the most sober, sane and reasonable thing any human being can ever do! In deed no one can be argued into an encounter with Jesus Christ. Similarly no one who has had an encounter with Jesus Christ can be argued out! One has to meet him for themselves! After interacting with the “free thinkers” for a while now and discussing science among other things, I have concluded that in not a lack of evidence that makes them so called “atheists” It is the suppression/ignoring of the evidence and also the personal reasons. About this the Bible says;

    “THE WRATH OF GOD IS BEING REVEALED FROM HEAVEN AGAINST ALL THE GODLESSNESS AND WICKEDNESS OF PEOPLE, WHO SUPPRESS THE TRUTH BY THEIR WICKEDNESS, SINCE WHAT MAY BE KNOWN ABOUT GOD IS PLAIN TO THEM, BECAUSE GOD HAS MADE IT PLAIN TO THEM. FOR SINCE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD GOD’S INVISIBLE QUALITIES—HIS ETERNAL POWER AND DIVINE NATURE—HAVE BEEN CLEARLY SEEN, BEING UNDERSTOOD FROM WHAT HAS BEEN MADE, SO THAT PEOPLE ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE.” Romans 1: 18 -20

    “KNOWING THIS FIRST, THAT THERE SHALL COME IN THE LAST DAYS SCOFFERS, WALKING AFTER THEIR OWN LUSTS, AND SAYING, WHERE IS THE PROMISE OF HIS COMING? FOR SINCE THE FATHERS FELL ASLEEP, ALL THINGS CONTINUE AS THEY WERE FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION. FOR THIS THEY WILLINGLY ARE IGNORANT OF.” 2 Peter 3:5

    May The Lord Jesus Christ open their eyes to the deception they are in!

    Like

    • liz
      November 16, 2012

      @ j.w.. this is my prayer too… so all i will say is Amen to “May The Lord Jesus Christ open their eyes to the deception they are in!”

      Like

      • makagutu
        December 29, 2012

        Liz stop wasting time praying. Jesus did not exist and he isn’t going to be answering any prayers. You have been misled by the pastor, your parents and now you are misleading yourself

        Like

  18. j.w
    November 13, 2012

    Even more real encounters with the risen Jesus Christ;

    Like

  19. Charlie
    November 13, 2012

    Adam Sham I welcome you to the church which Christ founded. Indeed it is something to celebrate when one comes to Christ. I do also welcome you to deepen your faith in Christ and the same church He founded and in turn be a more solid witness to the promises He made. Let me now address some of the objections raised towards your testimony by other members of the forum.
    Now, when Adam gives his testimony does it mean that his testimony is false simply because no one else has experienced it? I can say I love brown bread, that doesn’t mean that it’s a false testimony simply because someone has never had brown bread. Indeed to prove that one loves brown bread one has to critique the claims and that critique has to be based on widely acceptable basis. I believe that this is partly the reason we have this post here but to claim that his experience is not true (without evidence I might add) then it goes beyond impartial critique and shows biasness. My personal opinion doesn’t matter here but a sound critique of the evidence would show whether Adam is telling the truth or not.
    Now, looking as to Adam’s claim of conversion, I don’t think the audience would like to view his story as credible… I say so because it appears to me that they would rather put all issues with regard to faith and religion into that one simple account of conversion. Conversion is a subset function of God and the bigger picture of whether God exists. Conversion stories can (but not always) provide evidence for the existence of God to the recipient. This is the case with Adam here I would think. He has had his experience with God and as a result that evidence of conversion (or/ and deliverance) is sufficient evidence for him. We can debate as to the existence of God but if the evidence of witness by Adam is not enough then I think this post is not for you. However, interestingly enough the church doesn’t live on personal witness alone. We have had both public and private revelation from present day and going back to Christ and even further back. The church itself stands as witness of the same.
    Lastly, in different light though not all divergent from the topic I think miracles have played a major role in conversion and indeed proving the existence of God. It is what happened to Adam (my opinion) and it is what Christ has used to stamp His presence (among many more) here on earth. Has anyone ever thought to really critique that claim of the church? I know that Harry tends to have some form of self hypnosis when we have visited this claim in the past.
    Regards,

    Charlie.

    Like

  20. makagutu
    November 13, 2012

    First, Adam,j and Charles, at what point have we lost civility? I hope you are not taking offence with our calling some of the claims you make outright BS. I will also try to respond to your questions that you have posited above. On second thought, they are very subjective questions and my answer is you are deluded to think there is a god busy answering your prayers. I can’t talk about the miracles you mention, unless there is corroboration and independent verification all we have is your word and that unfortunately I can’t take as evidence.

    I will not watch the videos on NDE, as you maybe aware a neurosurgeon last month did release a book claiming they had gone to heaven while in a coma and there have been critics on the same and I would suggest you look at them in your free time.

    If you have a lot of time in your hands, you can find a video confirming anything. As for Jesus, there is little extra biblical evidence for him having existed. He is a legend or mythical being created by men. You know as they say if god did not exist, one had to be created. So is the case with Jesus and we can stretch it farther to include Mohammed.

    Charles it seems to me you don’t understand the contention we have with his story. Have you read Hume on miracles? My question is what makes Adam special to god to cure him of drug addiction whilst there are many other people suffering from the same problem they have prayed and there is no respite? Do you have an answer for this question?

    Adam, the question of free will will need a post of it’s own and we can revisit it at some time in the future when I have done a bit of research on the matter. I hope this acceptable to you.

    j.w, I don’t know what you mean by evidence? Are you suggesting atheists are being willfully ignorant? I am one of those you have had a long discussion with here and on my blog and whenever I have refuted any of your claims you go looking for some creationist video or a video of an atheist converting to some deism and use that as evidence for a god. I see you guys like to quote the bible as if it were true, you maintain circular reasoning and not see it as faulty. I think it is also important for you bible followers to be cognizant of the different audiences these writers were addressing.

    As a general comment writing in caps doesn’t add emphasis or make your argument any stronger, on the contrary it makes your post hard to read so all the parts in caps I can’t read. So please let us be fair to each other, you don’t need caps for a whole paragraph! Don’t feel like you are talking to yourself, those videos we have seen several similar and there is nothing new that they present.

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  21. Adam Sham
    November 13, 2012

    Thank you Charlie and J.W. for backing me up here. Great posts and God bless you both! It upsets me when I tell people how easy it is to experience God, as all they have to do is call out to Him in prayer and seek Him for themselves and they will know without a doubt He is real. It’s such an easy thing to do, to put all this debating to rest, yet they either refuse to acknowledge that I even say it, or refuse to do it themselves. It baffles me how they say theirs no evidence yet every single thing that I have written is evidence. Like you guys said, you can’t be argued or “convinced” into a relationship with God, you have to experience it for yourself. Well said on that because that couldn’t be more true.

    Makugutu, did you really just say their is little extra biblical evidence proving the existence of Jesus? Did you even watch the video I posted on that? There is TONS of evidence outside the Bible talking about Jesus. Most of the evidence is coming from the writings of Roman and Greek pagans mocking Jesus’ followers for worshiping Him after He was crucified. It’s not subjective whatsoever. It’s not like it’s Christians writing proof of it, these are people mocking Jesus and hating on Him, yet saying He was real and that He was crucified. There is more literal proof for the existence of Jesus then for Julius Caeser. Everyone believes in Caeser though…

    I typed in caps to emphasize it yes. And I’m glad I did, because you still aren’t touching on that part of my responses. I’m tired of writing all this and only have you touch upon 1-2 things and ignore everything else. It’s like you only comment on what you “think” you can disprove and ignore the rest. Do you want to know if God is real or not? I will never prove it to you using a keyboard because God is beyond our capacities to think or imagine. He works in ways that you cannot understand, which is why He tells us to trust Him and stop leaning on our own limited understanding. There are many reasons as to why a prayer isn’t answered. A prayer will not be answered if A) you are living in sin and willfully disobeying God B) God has given you things to do and you ignore Him and don’t obey them C) You are praying for the wrong things like money, cars, women, and the useless pleasures of this earth. Scripture even says we need to pray for things according to His will. If you prayer for drugs, money, sex, riches, etc, you won’t get it. Also, many people expect all prayers to work instantly. It doesn’t always work like that. My first prayer did because God used it to boost my faith and let me know He was there. Once I did, I had no problem waiting on Him. God is not a microwave, we can’t set our prayers on a timer and expect God to fulfill it at that moment. He works on His time, not ours, and His timing is always perfect. We might pray for something like financial help, and not recieve it as soon as we wanted it, so that might lead us to doubt that God heard us and that He is answering it. Then we might get into a car accident a few months later and need the money, and that is when God will supply it, knowing that if He supplied it earlier we would have spent it all. Don’t ever try to “figure out” God because it won’t work, especially if you aren’t born again and you haven’t personally met and experienced Him. Like I said, there is more then enough evidence, you just choose not to accept it because you haven’t experienced it. These people are not lying, I’m not lying, the Muslims, Atheists, Jews, Buddhists, Hinduists that experience Jesus for themselves are not lying either. The people who saw heaven and hell first hand and met Jesus face to face are not lying, and to say its a chemical induced drug trip from the brain is utter nonsense, and it proves how pitiful of a rebuttal that is. There is more then enough evidence but you don’t accept it because you haven’t experienced it first hand and can’t explain it, that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen and it’s not true. Once again, you can have a testimony just like it if you seek God in prayer. He’s right there at the door waiting for you to answer Him. Will you let the doorbell keep ringing or will you let Him in? All of us can promise you God is real because we have personally experienced Him. I experience Him everyday and like I said He always, always, always answers my prayers. If you sincerely call out to Him, and continue to do so until He answers, I promise you with God as my witness He will.

    Like

    • makagutu
      November 13, 2012

      Adam, you say there are writings by Greek and Roman pagans deriding Jesus’ followers. Since I have a particular interest in this matter, would you be as kind enough to share this material with me. On the video i will honestly decline to watch it. I have watched so many people claiming they have evidence of Jesus having existed and it’s the same story. So for me particularly books will do not videos, my bandwidth doesn’t allow me to watch movies on youtube 😦

      I didn’t read whatever is in caps, they are not friendly to the eye. What haven’t not responded to? The 7 questions you asked are all subjective, how do I answer them?

      Now, it seems you are saying there are certain things you ask you’ll not get while the bible says clearly whatsoever you shall ask for in my name, my father in heaven will grant it. Haven’t you seen that verse or did you chose to interpret it to mean just a specific thing? There are many brothers and sisters waiting on the lord for husbands and wives, did you just say they are wasting their time praying that maybe they should join a dating site or something of that kind? Help me here, I need to understand this more clearly you know!

      You have given three reasons why god doesn’t answer prayers, how would you a mere mortal know the mind of a god if any existed? How would you know why he/she/it answers some prayers and not others and what problem is there with earthly pleasures? What other pleasures do you know of? Well I see most pastors praying for cars and in a short while the whole congregation donates towards that goal, is that god answering prayer or a congregation being swindled?

      It would be interesting for you to know I was born and raised up christian and in my earnest search for god, all i found was myself. There are a few possibles 1. god doesn’t exist, 2. am god 3. god is in hiding.

      When you say one must be born again, what do you mean and why would you want to always remain a child? Is there a fear to grow up?

      Like

  22. Charlie
    November 13, 2012

    makagutu,
    I do not recall objecting to anything other than a partial rendering of the verdict wrt Adam, but since you brought up civility I hope the discussion can stay so… civil. Now, I have not read Hume’s book but in relation to miracles I indeed am talking about several and in deed hundreds of publicly acclaimed miracles some of which you can go see with your own eyes and some which admittedly will take some basis of understanding to acknowledge. This goes to the credibility of miracles. Indeed public miracles in no way make private miracles any less credible.
    Now, to ask what makes Adam special that he would have personal intervention with respect to his addiction, I would say its a matter of God’s grand design. There is purpose to why he did and not someone else. Now, that would seem like a rather far fetched idea but then again so is the concept of grasping everything nature has to offer. We know we have atoms, we know how they function and we can manipulate how some of them function but we don’t know why they function. All we know is that in the grand design certain atoms act in certain ways and in similar light we know there are miracle but we may never know why Adam was chosen. Now I say “may never know” because Adam’s experience is what I would call private. It may be for him alone to be changed and as such make something better of himself. On the other hand there are other forms of transformation and miracles that happen to distinct people and in turn act as public witness. There are so many and they echo out throughout history.
    I know I have not addressed the issue about the suffering. I wouldn’t like to talk much without hitting a point you would like me to expand on so Ill say this about suffering; that there are people suffering doesn’t mean that God doesn’t exist, quite the contrary. We know that suffering has redemptive qualities. In fact we can also show that suffering is a recurring and dominant theme in Christian history. Sure, one can say that it would have been good evidence of the existence of God to not having to suffer but as CS Lewis asked, are we sure that that world could have existed?
    Lastly, I think to posit the existence of Jesus as mythical is beyond the issue at hand but if you would like to visit that topic here I don’t think it would be much an issue. Factually we know that He existed, its not a matter of personal opinion but historical evidence. In a crime scene a credible witness would be all that would be needed to convict a person. If the evidence corresponds to the witnesses accounts then we have no option than to believe. This is the case with the biblical witnesses. If they themselves claim to be witnesses why do we throw out their testimony on account of their belief?
    Regards

    Like

    • makagutu
      November 13, 2012

      Charles, I shouldn’t have included your name in the response about civility. It was a response to Adam.

      When you talk about miracles, just so we are in the same page what do you mean? I think once we have definitions out of the way, continuing this conversation becomes easier, don’t you think? I will try and find you the link to Hume on miracles after you define miracles for me though.

      In your second paragraph, you have wrong analogies, we are talking about a benevolent and omnipotent god, why would he be so choosy if he were to exist? Do you see my problem here? It is not that he/she/it heals Adam from drug addiction but why he lets others die from hunger who also pray to him.

      You say some suffering is redemptive, how does a person suffering from cancer feel redeemed? How does a family whose 2 year old daughter who have been savagely raped feel redeemed? Who is redeemed when a mudslide covers a whole village while they are in their sleep killing everyone? Why would an omni god create a world full of suffering? Is he a sadist, was he bored, did he run out of ideas? Do you see my problem? Do you see what I reject?

      The issue of Jesus existence has been covered elsewhere on this blog, kindly find time to read on what we do, you will find a long discussion on the matter of Jesus, you can skip the discussions on evolution and just look at what was written on the historicity of Jesus and if you still have any question please continue the discussion here with me since where I refer you to the comments are almost 100 and so it would be quite a challenge to track them if you get what I mean.

      regards

      Like

      • Charlie
        November 14, 2012

        makagutu,
        You beat me to the punch. I was going to ask you the same question concerning miracles. A miracle may be defined as an event that occurs in nature but that has a cause lying outside nature, that is, a supernatural cause. Miracles are not violations of the laws of nature. The way we know if an event is a miracle is by seeing if it could have been caused by natural forces.
        I think I’m getting your argument wrt suffering but I’m not quite sure you get the two-sided coin scenario I’m presenting. We ultimately do not know why people suffer or why God uses suffering to push good into the world. What we know is that through this suffering redemption flows. Now this may sound like a repetition but let me illustrate. The purpose of God creating us is that we may come to know Him and love Him. We know that in any of those two scenarios (know & love) one has to show some level of interest and sincerity, one can choose to or not take on both conditions. Here we are beginning to define free will. Now, let’s take on suffering. Suppose someone is diagnosed with cancer. God looks at the person and decides to heal them. Another has their limbs crushed in an accident and can’t walk and miraculously their limbs grow back. And also a robber decides to take a wooden beam to his victim’s head and poof! it turns into a soft pillow. I hope that you can see that eventually there is no consequence to our actions, or the actions of others (including nature) on ourselves. We lose free will and knowing also becomes irrelevant in the long run. We become autonomous beings without consequence and so without purpose.
        But if indeed God allowed one to know & love Him then some consequence (and therefore suffering) would be required in order that we may know, that we may choose and eventually we may openly come to love. I know that this may be a hard concept to grasp but if you think about it, it is the plight of the poor, the sick, the grief stricken that makes us come together in support. We wouldn’t have UN, AMREF, KDF etc. if we weren’t coming together to assist the suffering. I hope this gives you some level of understanding as to suffering and why He would allow it.
        Now, from time to time God does intervene with regard to the suffering. His purpose in doing so may not be any different from why He created us but indeed on occasion He uses these interventions to further make His purpose known. He loves us and may take away our suffering but He may also allow the suffering so we may also love Him. Hope this helps.
        Now, I may have used a term in my previous post that I should not have (redeem) not because it’s not so but because in efforts to explain it we would have to delve a bit into faith. That’s a long topic in and of itself but the long and short of it is that even in the suffering of a cancer patient God can use that suffering to bring them (and even other people that the suffering choose to offer suffering for) into a deeper understanding of His love.
        Please bear with me if I’ve left something out. Now, as to the links to the discussion on the historicity of Jesus please link me up. I’m also awaiting your link on Hume.
        Regards

        Like

  23. Adam Sham
    November 13, 2012

    Born again means being filled with the Holy Spirit and beginning a personal relationship with God. The Holy Spirit regenerates you and changes you and you’re mind to that of God’s will. It has nothing to do with being a child. Also, like I said, the Holy Spirit gives you a much better interpretation of scripture then you’re mind ever could. Yes I have read the Bible many times and I am well aware of the verse you are talking about. Yes, God has soulmates for us and asking God to give you a Godly husband or wife is a prayer He will answer, I have seen it answered many times, but Jesus clearly told us to not love the things of the world, and not to be a part of it, because friendship with the world makes you an enemy of the world. Satan is of the world, God is not. Why would he tell you to revel in earthly pleasures when He wants you to take pleasure in Him and not the world? Not to mention almost all earthly pleasures involve sin of some sort. If God hates sin and wants us to stop sinning completely and even sent His son to die so we could be forgiven, why would He bless us and give us sinful things which He clearly hates and condemns? Not all earthly pleasures are sin but most are, and God wants us to be as seperate from the earth and it’s things as possible. The Bible tells us to be on the earth but not OF it. Jesus told the rich man to sell all of His goods and use it to feed the poor. Jesus did not call us to live rich lives, He called us to live as humble servants to all as He did, because our riches are in heaven, not on Earth, and we will receive them in due time. As far as a pastor praying for a car, I can promise you it’s the congregation being swindled. One of the things God did was He called me out of the church due to it’s corruption. Satan owns most, not all, of churches today. There are a few good churches preaching the truth but many are not. He made it known to me that He wanted me to seek Him 1 on 1 at home so He could reveal to me the truth Himself and not have me be corrupted by false gospels like the prosperity message which is what you are referring to. Once again you are failing to touch upon my main point, which is why I type it in caps to begin with. You need to seek God 1 on 1 in prayer and call out to Him to receive a personal revelation from Him. Are you going to do that or not?

    Like

  24. Adam Sham
    November 13, 2012

    Friendship with the world makes you an enemy of God**

    Like

    • makagutu
      November 15, 2012

      Adam, have you any report from another world why you’d be so convinced that having friendship with this one we got here is wrong?

      Like

  25. Charlie
    November 15, 2012

    Wondering what’s happened to makagutu…

    Like

    • makagutu
      November 15, 2012

      Charles my apologies.
      Below are links to what Hume says on miracles and once you read them we can follow up this discussion I guess. After you are done with Hume, http://www.bartleby.com/37/3/14.html, http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/miracles/ you can visit http://maasaiboys.wordpress.com/2012/09/23/on-the-incredibility-of-the-resurrection-story/ to see what Thomas Paine said on the story of the resurrection. And on the historicity of Jesus http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/1000years.htm.

      I think we can continue from here.

      Like

      • Charlie
        November 22, 2012

        makagutu,
        You have given me quite a lot to go through. I’m yet to get back to you. Not quite through with all the content but I’m getting a general picture. Will have a response for you in due time. Thank you for your patience.

        Like

      • Charlie
        November 25, 2012

        makagutu,
        Sorry for the long pause but I’m back now. I have gone through the articles you proposed. I will have to watch the discussion at a later time though. Now that I have gone through the articles the ball is back in your court with regards to my earlier post on the 14th.

        Like

      • makagutu
        November 25, 2012

        Charles, thanks for your diligence. The reason I gave you the link to my blog [maasaiboys.wordpress,com] is so you could leave a comment on any of the posts from where I can get your email address and have this discussion in private, I think that will be more beneficial to you and me.
        On your comment of the 14th, allow me to respond; if a miracle has a cause outside nature, how can we know this cause? And how does this cause become a god? And if as you say a miracle is not a violation on the laws of nature, then we can’t call the miracles in the sense the bible authors and billions of adherents want us to believe.
        This is my point, if a god existed and it were powerful, then it is responsible for all the suffering. It can’t escape. We can’t allow it to have it any other way unless you agree with me that if he does exist, then he is capable but not willing and thus not good, willing but not able then he is not powerful, both willing and able but does nothing then he is malevolent. If there is no god, which is the case, it is up to us to ensure there is maximum good for the maximum number of people and that is why we have MSF[Doctors without borders]. We don’t have these organisations because a god exist but allow me to say we have them in defiance of the gods so to speak!
        I want to indulge you a bit, let us for a moment posit that you have a son or sons, do you test them to find out if they love you or when you go to work you bring them presents. You would go out of your way to ensure no harm befall them? Am i right? If this is the case, why would an all powerful subject his creation to unbearable suffering? Unless you agree that man is more moral than gods, then no god who subjects his creation to suffering doesn’t deserve to be worshiped by any thinking human being!
        While I was a student at the university, I volunteered for a whole year at the Kenyatta Hospital cancer ward for children. While there, I saw children going through unbearable suffering. To tell me god is teaching us something through their suffering is not only abhorrent but is an insult to the families of the suffering children and to the children themselves! We would be right to demand of a god or gods if they exist since they are responsible for creating everything that they send us treatment for all ailments. We have known for a long time that gods don’t exist and it is for that reason we spend endless hours in laboratories and research centres to come up with cures for ailments. The church slows down vital research that could help in understanding how some diseases work by putting restrictions in use of human body in laboratory tests. We must change this if we must have a better future for our children and their children.
        Forgive the length of my post, I hope I have dealt with all the issues you raised then.
        Makagutu

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      • Charlie
        November 30, 2012

        makagutu,
        Find me at gitaucharlie@gmail.com. Sorry for the long wait. Age & work seem to have caught up with me. Let’s continue this.
        Regards,

        Charlie

        Like

  26. Adam Sham
    November 16, 2012

    Yes makagutu…it’s the God I’ve been telling you about this entire time.

    Like

    • makagutu
      November 17, 2012

      Then that god ought to have created you in a different world not this one!

      Like

  27. Nick
    November 16, 2012

    Adam, I never comment on any post without first reading it completely. I am not trying to prove anything to you definitively. I am just trying to show you that there are other non-religious explanations for experiences such as you have put up here.

    I also don’t like to engage in protracted discussions that become repetitive statements of faith by one side. I will agree with you on one thing. This conversation is becoming very pointless very fast. By your own admission you cannot provide any evidence outside of personal experience for your claims. I have already told you that that is not acceptable as evidence. So I will not bother with asking you again.

    When you are trying to explain something that has happened, and you do not know what caused it, don’t you first try to understand exactly what happened? Don’t you try and gather as much information as you can to help you understand it? Don’t you consider different possible causes for it? Don’t you try to reason and eliminate those causes that are not plausible? Or do you simply latch on to the explanation you like best and then look for support elsewhere? There is not one single sentence in your posts in which you try and consider a rational, non-mystical explanation for what happened to you. You immediately went for the supernatural one instead. A natural explanation would be much simpler than what you are proposing happened, so you should always try and rule this out first.

    To answer your questions, I have said before that I can’t comment on what you said happened to you because I don’t know you. I didn’t know you before and after your experience. So I have to accept your word that what you say happened actually happened. Maybe what caused it was a change in your state of mind. I can’t be sure, I am not a psychologist. But to even begin to investigate what you say happened to you I suspect that a psychologist would need to know many more variables than you let on about what else was going on in your life. These might be possible motivations, fears, other significant events happening at that particular time in your life, any factors that may have influenced your experience as narrated by you. You would have to exclude a lot of other possibilities before even considering a supernatural explanation for your experience. You dismiss explanations like the placebo effect, but it actually works. When new medications are being tested, a placebo is always administered to a control group to find out if the medication has a measurable effect over the placebo effect. So people do respond to placebos. Again, I’m not saying that’s what happened, but it’s possible.

    You say god answers all your prayers and communicates with you daily? You must have very trivial needs if you are serious about that statement. Are you saying god has answered every single prayer you’ve ever made? What happened to “yes, no and wait”? If he always says yes, ask for something big next time, like a vaccine for HIV and malaria. What exactly do you normally pray for? And what form does this daily communication take?

    The bible has “scientific” evidence for the solar system? A heliocentric solar system fully in line with how we understand it to be today? Unlikely. Bible verses that are said to have evidence or to prophesy something are usually so vague and clothed in metaphor that they could mean anything. I know I said I wouldn’t ask for evidence again, but I will make an exception here. Give the reference and we can read it and see what it says.

    If you think that people around the world only exclusively experience meeting Jesus in NDEs and visions you are very mistaken. These experiences happen to people in all cultures. People integrate their religious belief and culture into these experiences, so people who have visions tend to see the deities or figures from their particular culture. But even in christianity it’s not always Jesus, sometimes it’s Mary (mother of Jesus), sometimes an angel, or even a friend or relative. Just because you only hear about the Jesus experiences does not mean the others do not occur. Again, as a christian, you prefer to believe only those that agree with your point of view and ignore all the others. If I posted some videos of non-christians’ account of their personal experiences with another deity, would that be enough proof for you that they were true? or if I posted the videos of the testimonies of converts from christianity to islam, would that be proof that islam was the one true faith?

    From your response it is obvious that you did not understand my last post about NDEs. You also seem to be a bit ignorant about how the brain works. I did not say NDEs are drug induced. Go back and read what I wrote. I was trying to show that experiences very similar to NDEs can be produced by natural, easier to explain methods. This points to NDEs very likely having a physical cause, probably a change in the chemical balance in the brain. I’m sure you know that you do not perceive your environment directly. Your brain receives sensory data from your sensory organs in the form of electrical impulses. Everything that you see, hear, taste, smell and touch is nothing more than your brain receiving electrical impulses. Parts of the brain then process and integrate the sensory data received into a model of your environment that is constantly being updated by new data coming in. The working of the nervous system is controlled chemically. Changes in brain chemistry change how impulses are transmitted. Anything that messes with impulse transmission will affect a person’s perception. In clinically dead people, breathing and circulation of blood stops. The chemistry in the brain changes because it is not receiving a fresh supply of oxygen. I am not saying that this is exactly the same thing that happens if you take a drug, but using certain drugs also interferes with brain chemistry and can produce experiences very similar to NDEs. Same with applying a magnetic field or passing a current through some parts of the brain. And I don’t only mean experiences of the tunnel-and-light variety like you put it earlier, I mean experiences such as OBEs, meeting with “spiritual beings” and having what can be described as religious experiences, even for non-religious people. This is a documented fact. If these experiences can be produced using natural means, why are you so quick to assign to them a supernatural explanation? Of course NDEs have not been explained fully, but more evidence has been produced in favour of a natural cause than any other.

    Anyway, as long as you persist in proselytizing and asking me to pray for proof, and as long as I keep asking for evidence that will never be presented, I don’t think we can have a productive discussion. I think Charlie said it best, “if the evidence of witness by Adam is not enough then I think this post is not for you”. I agree.

    Like

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This entry was posted on November 11, 2012 by in Uncategorized.
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