Atheists In Kenya (AIK)

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Simply put, atheism means the absence of theistic belief. That’s it. It doesn’t mean anything else. Atheism is not a religion, a philosophy, a worldview, or anything similar. It is not the conviction that there are no gods, ghosts, angels, etc. Rather, it is the absence of a belief that these things are real. Atheism is nothing more than the lack of belief in a god or gods. It is the position that deities do not exist.support-donati

AIK was  formally registered as a Society under the Societies Act (Cap. 108), laws of Kenya. The registration certificate was signed on the 17th of February, 2016. The Registrar of Societies suspended our registration on 29th April, 2016 (See letter of suspension). We have filed a case at the high court of Kenya asking the courts overturn this illegal and unconstitutional suspension.

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We are really proud to be the first atheist society to be registered in Kenya. We currently have 200 registered members,and a huge following on social media!

AIK’s mission is to promote the growth and interaction of atheists in Kenya.

Learn more about AIK

We advocates for a separation of religion and state in Kenya. We hold the view that the Kenyan Constitution promotes secularism and fundamental freedoms under the Bill of Rights, including freedom of conscience.

(See Article 8 of the Kenyan Constitution)


We are not affiliated with any political party, and we accept any person as member, who declare themselves atheist and non-religious, provided that he is a Kenyan Citizen (18 years and above).

We are the only Atheist Society in Kenya! We are also the most vibrant atheist society in Africa. We want you to join us, and become a part of the transformation that we seek in Kenya and the region.

 

 

390 comments on “Home

  1. John Waruiru
    March 20, 2015

    I’ve been through my and other people’s minds been trying to understand this thing religion. So far the best conclusion I can reach is; “don’t confuse my innocent brain with deities coz even them disagree”.

    Liked by 1 person

    • allano
      January 16, 2016

      John, you have already admitted that you believe in deities.

      Like

    • fkaranja
      April 28, 2016

      There is only one true God. His name is Jehovah. He will remind you one day. I pray it not be at the day of judgement. you can still turn away and believe. click on https://assets.answersingenesis.org/doc/articles/pdf-versions/clearly_seen.pdf
      for more information on the God who created you. He knows you by your name. He knew you even before you were formed in the womb.

      Like

      • George M
        May 17, 2016

        You know how Yahoo Mail was used to reliably to handle our emails? Well, that cannot be said for Yahweeh Mail that is used by Yahweh to handle our prayer. It seems like 99.9% of the sent stuff goes directly to spam folder

        Liked by 1 person

      • Mboy
        June 24, 2016

        Now, if god knew everyone before they were formed in the womb, that means he knew what their choices would be once they’re alive. Which brings me to the question whether he knew that adam and eve (assuming they were real) would eat of the forbidden fruit or not? If he didn’t know, then he cannot be all-knowing, if he did know but then still continued to create them they way they were, then he only has himself to blame for what ever has happened to them on that fateful day. The couple were doomed even before they were created. You may not say that he warned them of the consequences of their disobedience because even if he did; because he is said to be all-knowing, he knew that warning them will not change their fate. So god created humanity with an innate trait for disobedience, but he seeks to punish them for it. How loving!

        This is the kind of thing that turned some of us into freethinkers. We live by the saying “dont do to others what you do not wish to be done unto you” which was said by an ancient philosopher way before jesus was (supposed to have been) alive. We do not derive our morality from the promises of eternal life in heaven or eternal damnation. Our morality is derived from the principle of botho/ubuntu. Which in our own African culture and language says “motho ke motho ka batho/ umuntu ungu muntu nga bantu”, the meaning of which gets lost in translation but can be explained by this that the essence of being a human being is reflected in your relation to other human beings. This is the most powerful instrument that should drive all humans to do good to others, not because you seek to be rewarded with a heavenly bliss, but because its a good thing to so, and its beneficial to humanity. Not this self seeking attitude protrayed by Judaeo-Christian-islamic believers.

        I for one don’t reject christianity just because i think god does not exist. I reject it based on many logical inconsistencies contained there in. I think that if some how we were to find that there is a god, many christians would be suprised to find that he would not be what they’ve belived him/it to be simply because of logical inconsistencies believed about him/it. Christianity for one, makes god to be contradictory to his own teaching. Christianity teaches people to love their enemies and pray for those who despitefuly use them. But their god doesn’t do the same. He seeks to destroy his own enemies and send those who reject him to hell. How is he different from a human dictator? How does he manifest his perfection by so doing? This only shows that a judeao-christian-islamic god is a man made concept which enslaves the minds of individuals who do not want to live in a world that is without a deity.

        Liked by 1 person

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        June 29, 2016

        Hallo Mboy

        I must say your comments are calm and largely issue centered in my view. Apart from other minor issues that may appear in your thread, the main point that you dwelt on is “IS THE EXISTENCE OF EVIL/DISOBEDIENCE COMPATIBLE WITH AN ALL-KNOWING GOD?” And you exclaim, Is God love?

        I can say that you have PRECISELY hit the central issue in the entire Bible, not so much the existence of God, but Is God LOVE? Is God responsible for disobedience?

        I can only speak on behalf of my Christian worldview. I will give some response to THE ALL KNOWING NATURE OF GOD and EXISTENCE OF EVIL in two-part series of posts. It may not be satisfactorily complete, but it may help anyway.

        The God of the Bible claims not only to be LOVING but to be LOVE ITSELF in essence (1 John 4:8). That is a BIG CLAIM if you ask me.

        Though LOVE is one of the most misused words, we can generally AGREE (irrespective of our worldviews) on what is NECESSARY for at least love to EXIST.

        1. Love requires More than ONE PERSON

        Love by any definition CANNOT exist ALONE. There has to be at least MORE THAN ONE PERSON for love to exist. A single man, for example, CANNOT claim to be love or loving until he enters a RELATIONSHIP. And if he is left ALONE in an ISOLATED system then love ceases. SELF-LOVE of course the root of many evils and corruption.

        So, the FIRST requirement is satisfactorily MET by the God of the Bible. That is, the fact that the God of the Bible IS NOT one person with rigid singularity but there are MORE THAN ONE PERSON in the concept of God (Let US make man…Genesis 1:26), tells us that BEFORE the creation of anything then still God existed in PLURALITY OF PERSONS and so LOVE COULD EXIST.

        If God God was just ONE PERSON (as in Islamic view for example), then its conceivable that BEFORE He created anything, he existed ALONE and as such that God cannot be Love in essence.

        The concept that there are three co-eternal persons withing the Biblical concept of God would then assure us that God could be love.

        Next I will give a comment of disobedience and an all-knowing LOVING God. Is it inconsistent with His character or not.

        Regards

        Victor Shikuku

        Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        June 30, 2016

        Hallo Mboy

        Let me give the last point on “Is God love?” and is EXISTENCE OF EVIL compatible with an ALL KNOWING LOVING GOD.

        Back to the requirements for LOVE to EXIST. Firstly, there needs to be more than ONE PERSON as indicated in my previous post.

        Secondly, for One to exercise love or to be love, FREE-WILL is imperative and not an option. Love only exists satisfactorily where THERE IS free will in the Highest sense of the word.

        That is systems can be PROGRAMMED to do certain things, people can be FORCED to do certain thing or marry certain people, but LOVE CAN NOT BE FORCED and it ceases to be love if its PROGRAMMED.

        Imagine your computer programmed to tell you ALL THE ROMANTIC THINGS you would love to hear. However SWEET, its not LOVE because of lack of free-will from the computer.

        Therefore, if God would claim to be LOVE and loving, the nature of creatures he must create is pre-determined, they must possess FREE-WILL; with capacity to say YES and NO without in-built programming, and that is precisely WHAT WE ARE.

        Free-will therefore comes with ability to OBEY willfully and DISOBEY also by exercising choice. Therefore, if God would UNDERMINE free-will by some degree (because of His fore-knowledge) then He CEASES to be Love as He claims.

        Therefore, we have two choices:

        1. To REGRET that we have a free-will

        2. To REGRET of the wrong choices we make by exercising our free-will

        The latter is most reasonable. It makes us enjoy love and give love.

        Therefore in short, God would be SELF-CONTRADICTING to claim to be love and make robots that obey because they are PROGRAMMED to do so. The ONLY action CONSISTENT with love is to create FREE-WILLED agents that will love and obey or rebel willfully, despite a foreknowledge.

        If God is all powerful he could do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING but if He is Love too, there are things He CAN NOT do, such as controlling the WILL among others.

        Its truly a wonderful thing that we have a free will.

        Regards

        Victor Shikuku

        Like

    • gathecagk
      April 29, 2016

      I am not surprised at all. am actually smiling at this because these things were prophesied in the Bible. which tells me the Bible is very true. woe unto them that will fulfill these prophesies. The Bible states clearly that in the latter times people will depart from the FAITH and will follow deceiving spirits and doctrines taught by DEMONS….they will appoint their own teachers and will be taught what they want to hear. 95% of atheists if not 100% must have believed in God one day…but then changed their belief later. otherwise how can you say you dont believe in the existence of God that you never heard about or one day had believed? so for me its just fulfillment of scriptures

      Liked by 1 person

      • Dk
        May 4, 2016

        A lot of people including yourself were indoctrinated as a child. Having someone impose a belief in a god as a child who may or may not be able to reason out for himself or herself is not the same as actually learning the scriptures as an adult then forming a conclusion that god doesn’t exists.

        All the atheists I have met or known did start off as believes of a certain faith, whether its christianity, islam, hinduism, scientology etc Most of them became atheists before they became pre-teens depending on the depth of their indoctrination. It had nothing to do with demons and stuff like that. Its just basic common sense.

        How can you believe in talking snakes, boats the size 400 square cubic metres that fits all animals in the world in pairs, a man who got swallowed by a fish and lived inside this fish for days (where was he? the intestines? colon? where??), talking donkeys, walking dead etc… All these sound like fairy tales to me. I reasoned this out for myself as child, how can a grown man still be so irrational.

        If you took these bible stories as metaphors trying to explain something deeper then that’s cool. But the problem is that most people like yourself take scriptures literary.

        Like

      • Hakuna Mungu
        June 19, 2016

        Who/What are demons, and whom do they look like?, lets analysis per the images offered by your religious doctrines. Jesus son of supposedly God, is depicted as a white blue eyed blonde man, that should tell you how his father looks like right? lets look at the picture of the devil mmmmh black like you lol. Please don’t tell me color don’t matter, coz clearly it mattered and there is a reason for him being white.

        Liked by 1 person

    • munguout24
      June 30, 2016

      [page 173] “To win a people for Christ, it is necessary to Europeanize them. Behind all systems of administration lies the fundamental question of what we intend to make of the African”

      “One possible and largely practiced policy, is that of oppression, which keeps the Native (African) in a subjected and inferior position as a mere serf(slave) of the dominate race”

      “And the most effective device that has been used to accomplish this European agenda is the religion that was forced upon the African Ancestors. This religion is called CHRISTIANITY

      “The first method begins by destroying the institutions, traditions, religious and habits of the people then superimpose upon the ruins whatever the governing powers consider to be a better the administration system”

      “One of the most effective ways to suppress a people is by putting a device in place that will dissociate these people from their God, spiritually, culture and history”

      ref: The Christianizing of Afrika… IN THE GOLDEN STOOL by Edwin W. Smith

      Like

  2. WILFRED NZAU ING'ETI
    March 21, 2015

    my experience in the other side pre-empts its genuiness and authenticity,hence my wish to faithfully join you..

    Like

    • munguout25
      June 28, 2016

      Only when you shed the shackles of religion, can you truly be free

      Like

  3. Sammy
    March 23, 2015

    It is written that you will come and its not a supprise at all. The initial and fundementals of your faith/ belief is denial of God the creator of all things. The denial of Jesus christ who died for our sins. Without the fear of God this world is in chaos. You promote the rot in the society and decay of our morals. You people are blinded by evil, you are at the worst stage of life. I believe at your age most probably u have learnt what is in the bible. Go back and read it once more.

    Like

    • Chestnut Muchiri
      April 1, 2015

      It it takes some religious nut case to convince you of a place called hell for you to live right then you are a terrible person. One does not need religion or to fear gods to be moral.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Sammy
        April 22, 2015

        AIK is just the woork of the devil. It’s Satan at work but I know one day thou not all, you will come running. God still loves you

        Like

      • bernard
        September 23, 2015

        One of satan’s biggest endeavors is to convince men that there is neither hell nor heaven. Make them believe that its all about science, until its too late. Science is good in that it makes our lives comfortable, however when it comes to the difficult questions it backs out. That tells me that there is something more and greater than science.

        Like

      • allano
        January 16, 2016

        Hi Chestnut! What does one need to be moral?

        Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        January 18, 2016

        Whoever lives a morally upright life for fear of hell is deluded. This is far from Christianity. If one is non-believer because he thought there is an eternally burning hell to prompt him to act right is just as deceived now as he was then. The bible does not teach such a thing. It does not take a genius to notice the inconsistency is such ideas. It means there is no death in the first place! Little errors lead to grievious erroneous conclusions

        Like

      • fkaranja
        April 28, 2016

        There are a number of common arguments for the existence of God. But most of these arguments are not as effective as many Christians would like to think. Let’s consider a hypothetical conversation between a Christian and an atheist.

        Christian: “Everything with a beginning requires a cause. The universe has a beginning and therefore requires a cause. That cause is God.”

        Atheist: “Even if it were true that everything with a beginning requires a cause, how do you know that the cause of the universe is God? Why not a big bang? Maybe this universe sprang from another universe, as some physicists now believe.”

        Christian: “The living creatures of this world clearly exhibit design. Therefore, they must have a designer. And that designer is God.”

        Atheist: “The living creatures only appear to be designed. Natural selection can account for this apparent design. Poorly adapted organisms tend to die off, and do not pass on their genes.”

        Christian: “But living creatures have irreducible complexity. All their essential parts must be in place at the same time, or the organism dies. So God must have created these parts all at the same time. A gradual evolutionary path simply will not work.”

        Atheist: “Just because you cannot imagine a gradual stepwise way of constructing an organism does not mean there isn’t one.”

        Christian: “DNA has information in it—the instructions to form a living being. And information never comes about by chance; it always comes from a mind. So DNA proves that God created the first creatures.”

        Atheist: “There could be an undiscovered mechanism that generates information in the DNA. Give us time, and we will eventually discover it. And even if DNA did come from intelligence, why would you think that intelligence is God? Maybe aliens seeded life on earth.”

        Christian: “The Resurrection of Jesus proves the existence of God. Only God can raise the dead.”

        Atheist: “You don’t really have any proof that Jesus rose from the dead. This section of the Bible is simply an embellished story. And even if it were true, it proves nothing. Perhaps under certain rare chemical conditions, a dead organism can come back to life. It certainly doesn’t mean that there is a God.”

        Christian: “The Bible claims that God exists, and that it is His Word to us. Furthermore, what the Bible says must be true, since God cannot lie.”

        Atheist: “That is a circular argument. Only if we knew in advance that God existed would it be reasonable to even consider the possibility that the Bible is His Word. If God does not exist—as I contend—then there is no reason to trust the Bible.”

        Christian: “Predictive prophecy shows that the Bible really must be inspired by God. All of the Old Testament prophecies concerning Christ, for example, were fulfilled. The odds of that happening by chance are very low.”

        Atheist: “A low probability isn’t the same as zero. People do win the lottery. Besides, maybe the Gospels have embellished what Jesus did, so that it would agree with the Old Testament prophecies. Perhaps some so-called prophetic books were actually written after the events they ‘predict.’ Maybe certain gifted individuals have abilities not yet understood by science and can occasionally predict the future. It certainly doesn’t prove the Bible is inspired by God.”

        Christian: “I have personally experienced God, and so have many other Christians. He has saved us and transformed our lives. We know that He exists from experience.”

        Atheist: “Unfortunately, your personal experiences are not open to investigation; I have only your word for it. And second, how do you know that such subjective feelings are really the result of God? The right drug might produce similar feelings.”
        Not Conclusive

        None of the above arguments really prove that God exists.

        It should be noted that all the facts used by the Christian in the above hypothetical conversation are true. Yes, God is the first cause, the designer of life, the resurrected Christ, the Author of Scripture, and the Savior of Christians. Yet the way these facts are used is not decisive. That is, none of the above arguments really prove that God exists.

        Some of the above arguments are very weak: appeals to personal experience, vicious circular reasoning, and appeals to a first cause. While the facts are true, the arguments do not come close to proving the existence of the biblical God. Some of the arguments seem stronger; I happen to think that irreducible complexity and information in DNA are strong confirmations of biblical creation. And predictive prophecy does confirm the inspiration of Scripture. Nonetheless, for each one of these arguments, the atheist was able to invent a “rescuing device.” He was able to propose an explanation for this evidence that is compatible with his belief that God does not exist.

        Moreover, most of the atheist’s explanations are actually pretty reasonable, given his view of the world. He’s not being illogical. He is being consistent with his position. Christians and atheists have different worldviews—different philosophies of life. And we must learn to argue on the level of worldviews if we are to argue in a cogent and effective fashion.

        The Christian in the above hypothetical conversation did not have a correct approach to apologetics. He was arguing on the basis of specific evidences with someone who had a totally different professed worldview than his own. This approach is never conclusive, because the critic can always invoke a rescuing device to protect his worldview.1 Thus, if we are to be effective, we must use an argument that deals with worldviews, and not simply isolated facts. The best argument for the existence of God will be a “big-picture” kind of argument.

        God Doesn’t Believe in Atheists

        The Bible teaches that atheists are not really atheists.

        The Bible teaches that atheists are not really atheists. That is, those who profess to be atheists do ultimately believe in God in their heart-of-hearts. The Bible teaches that everyone knows God, because God has revealed Himself to all (Romans 1:19). In fact, the Bible tells us that God’s existence is so obvious that anyone who suppresses this truth is “without excuse” (Romans 1:20). The atheist denies with his lips what he knows in his heart. But if they know God, then why do atheists claim that they do not believe in God?

        The answer may be found in Romans 1:18. God is angry at unbelievers for their wickedness. And an all-powerful, all-knowing God who is angry at you is a terrifying prospect. So even though many atheists might claim that they are neutral, objective observers, and that their disbelief in God is purely rational, in reality, they are strongly motivated to reject the biblical God who is rightly angry with them. So they suppress that truth in unrighteousness. They convince themselves that they do not believe in God.2 The atheist is intellectually schizophrenic—believing in God, but believing that he does not believe in God.3

        Therefore, we do not really need to give the atheist any more specific evidences for God’s existence. He already knows in his heart-of-hearts that God exists, but he doesn’t want to believe it. Our goal is to expose the atheist’s suppressed knowledge of God.4 With gentleness and respect, we can show the atheist that he already knows about God, but is suppressing what he knows to be true.

        Exposing the Inconsistency

        Because an atheist does believe in God, but does not believe that he believes in God, he is simply a walking bundle of inconsistencies.

        Because an atheist does believe in God, but does not believe that he believes in God, he is simply a walking bundle of inconsistencies. One type to watch for is a behavioral inconsistency; this is where a person’s behavior does not comport with what he claims to believe. For example, consider the atheist university professor who teaches that human beings are simply chemical accidents—the end result of a long and purposeless chain of biological evolution. But then he goes home and kisses his wife and hugs his children, as if they were not simply chemical accidents, but valuable, irreplaceable persons deserving of respect and worthy of love.

        Consider the atheist who is outraged at seeing a violent murder on the ten o’clock news. He is very upset and hopes that the murderer will be punished for his wicked actions. But in his view of the world, why should he be angry? In an atheistic, evolutionary universe where people are just animals, murder is no different than a lion killing an antelope. But we don’t punish the lion! If people are just chemical accidents, then why punish one for killing another? We wouldn’t get upset at baking soda for reacting with vinegar; that’s just what chemicals do. The concepts that human beings are valuable, are not simply animals, are not simply chemicals, have genuine freedom to make choices, are responsible for their actions, and are bound by a universal objective moral code all stem from a Christian worldview. Such things simply do not make sense in an atheistic view of life.

        Many atheists behave morally and expect others to behave morally as well. But absolute morality simply does not comport with atheism. Why should there be an absolute, objective standard of behavior that all people should obey if the universe and the people within it are simply accidents of nature? Of course, people can assert that there is a moral code. But who is to say what that moral code should be? Some people think it is okay to be racist; others think it is okay to kill babies, and others think we should kill people of other religions or ethnicities, etc. Who is to say which position should be followed? Any standard of our own creation would necessarily be subjective and arbitrary.

        Now, some atheists might respond, “That’s right! Morality is subjective. We each have the right to create our own moral code. And therefore, you cannot impose your personal morality on other people!” But of course, this statement is self-refuting, because when they say, “you cannot impose your personal morality on other people” they are imposing their personal moral code on other people. When push comes to shove, no one really believes that morality is merely a subjective, personal choice.

        Logical Inconsistency

        Another inconsistency occurs when atheists attempt to be rational. Rationality involves the use of laws of logic. Laws of logic prescribe the correct chain of reasoning between truth claims. For example, consider the argument: “If it is snowing outside, then it must be cold out. It is snowing. Therefore, it is cold out.” This argument is correct because it uses a law of logic called modus ponens. Laws of logic, like modus ponens, are immaterial, universal, invariant, abstract entities. They are immaterial because you can’t touch them or stub your toe on one. They are universal and invariant because they apply in all places and at all times (modus ponens works just as well in Africa as it does in the United States, and just as well on Friday as it does on Monday). And they are abstract because they deal with concepts.

        Laws of logic stem from God’s sovereign nature; they are a reflection of the way He thinks.

        Laws of logic stem from God’s sovereign nature; they are a reflection of the way He thinks. They are immaterial, universal, invariant, abstract entities, because God is an immaterial (Spirit), omnipresent, unchanging God who has all knowledge (Colossians 2:3). Thus, all true statements will be governed by God’s thinking—they will be logical. The law of non-contradiction, for example, stems from the fact that God does not deny Himself (2 Timothy 2:13). The Christian can account for laws of logic; they are the correct standard for reasoning because God is sovereign over all truth. We can know some of God’s thoughts because God has revealed Himself to us through the words of Scripture and the person of Jesus Christ.

        However, the atheist cannot account for laws of logic. He cannot make sense of them within his own worldview. How could there be immaterial, universal, invariant, abstract laws in a chance universe formed by a big bang? Why should there be an absolute standard of reasoning if everything is simply “molecules in motion”? Most atheists have a materialistic outlook—meaning they believe that everything that exists is material, or explained by material processes. But laws of logic are not material! You cannot pull a law of logic out of the refrigerator! If atheistic materialism is true, then there could be no laws of logic, since they are immaterial. Thus, logical reasoning would be impossible!

        Laws of Logic
        No one is denying that atheists are able to reason and use laws of logic. The point is that if atheism were true, the atheist would not be able to reason or use laws of logic because such things would not be meaningful. The fact that the atheist is able to reason demonstrates that he is wrong. By using that which makes no sense given his worldview, the atheist is being horribly inconsistent. He is using God’s laws of logic, while denying the biblical God that makes such laws possible.

        How could there be laws at all without a lawgiver? The atheist cannot account for (1) the existence of laws of logic, (2) why they are immaterial, (3) why they are universal, (4) why they do not change with time, and (5) how human beings can possibly know about them or their properties. But of course, all these things make perfect sense on the Christian system. Laws of logic owe their existence to the biblical God. Yet they are required to reason rationally, to prove things. So the biblical God must exist in order for reasoning to be possible. Therefore, the best proof of God’s existence is that without Him we couldn’t prove anything at all! The existence of the biblical God is the prerequisite for knowledge and rationality. This is called the “transcendental argument for God” or TAG for short. It is a devastating and conclusive argument, one that only a few people have even attempted to refute (and none of them successfully).5

        Proof Versus Persuasion

        Transcendental Argument
        Though the transcendental argument for God is deductively sound, not all atheists will be convinced upon hearing it. It may take time for them to even understand the argument in the first place. As I write this chapter, I am in the midst of an electronic exchange with an atheist who has not yet fully grasped the argument. Real-life discussions on this issue take time. But even if the atheist fully understands the argument, he may not be convinced. We must remember that there is a difference between proof and persuasion. Proof is objective, but persuasion is subjective. The transcendental argument does indeed objectively prove that God exists. However, that does not mean that the atheists will necessarily cry “uncle.” Atheists are strongly motivated to not believe in the biblical God—a God who is rightly angry at them for their treason against Him.

        The atheist’s denial of God is an emotional reaction, not a logical one.

        But the atheist’s denial of God is an emotional reaction, not a logical one. We might imagine a disobedient child who is about to be punished by his father. He might cover his eyes with his hands and say of his father, “You don’t exist!” but that would hardly be rational. Atheists deny (with their lips) the biblical God, not for logical reasons, but for psychological reasons. We must also keep in mind that the unbeliever’s problem is not simply an emotional issue, but a deep spiritual problem (1 Corinthians 2:14). It is the Holy Spirit that must give him the ability to repent (1 Corinthians 12:3; 2 Timothy 2:25).

        So we must keep in mind that it is not our job to convert people—nor can we. Our job is to give a defense of the faith in a way that is faithful to the Scriptures (1 Peter 3:15). It is the Holy Spirit that brings conversion. But God can use our arguments as part of the process by which He draws people to Himself.

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      • fkaranja
        April 29, 2016

        Convincing you of hell is the least problem you have. What’s more important is for you to know there is a God. And that God (Jehovah, God the father) has given all powere and authority in heaven and earth to his son, JESUS Christ, through whom all things were made and all we see came into being. Morality is defined from laws, laws came to us through God. Man’s idea of whats moral and not is ingrained in us from creation. It’s called your conscience. Only by trusting and believing in Jesus Christ, for there is no other name by which man can be saved, shall we have everlasting life, beyond this one.

        Like

      • Hakuna Mungu
        June 19, 2016

        I agree, no one God has come down to verify one religion over the other. I started doubting religion/christianity in my younger years, the biblos/bible never made any sense to me, a loving God my foot, yet he favors one people over the other gazillions of people. Africans tend to be the most in numbers who follow this religions, yet there is no one deity that represents them as in look like them, wait a minute they were given the devil.

        The europeans crafted a white blue eyed blonde man called jesus who looks like them, mohammed was an arab, where are the african deities???. africans following these religions has not helped them in any way, but instead made some psychotic and worshipping a naked white man on a stick as their God. The bible with its many contradictions and few morals cannot be any holy. We are the Gods we are looking for, its just us folks, let get it right. we have been made to depend on an imaginary sky daddy instead of being realistic and solving our issues

        No one, and again NO ONE has ever had a supernatural intervention to their issues, its always takes another human being to bail you out. You talk and answer yourself, you go out and get thing done, by yourself and help of your fellow humans, no one has prayed through their rent, car purchase or home. Religion is a game to make us feel helpless and void of feeling justified to take credit for what we do.

        Like

    • Dan Ole Moiko
      July 11, 2015

      Sammy, i concur with you totally, its nothing new, its been there, and more of them will come to try and bring confusion in the pretext of knowledge and enlightenment. It is futile, because in it, they fall, they get blinded by their own folly. Atheists, they were there, they will be, until when its time for them to realize they were wrong all along.

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      • Asad Al Walhaalbilal
        December 18, 2015

        I can only read very emotional stupid christian comments reflecting hatred for not being what they want you to be.I am an ATHIEST and I have no regrets for what I am.I always and I’ll always say God/gods are all man made to fool people.

        Liked by 1 person

    • pat
      January 26, 2016

      you realise there is no relationship between someone dying o a cross and ur sins being forgiven….right?….

      Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        January 27, 2016

        Pat, your comment on “no relationship between death on the cross and forgiveness of sins” is confusing. It seems to admit someone died on the cross (which is fact) then seems to admit also that there is sin (which is fact) but only denies the existence of a relationship between the two. It begs the question, what is sin?

        Otherwise it would be silly if sin does not exist and someone did not die to claim there is no relationship between two non-existent things. If they (the someone and sin) dont exist then you dont require a comment on their relationship. So what is sin?

        Secondly, If the relationship exists in a theological sense, you equally need a theological argument to show the relationship doesnot exist.

        The cross is a demonstration of the sinfulness of sin and that the law is immutable.

        Blessings

        Like

    • Alexander Kiprop
      June 3, 2016

      well firs of all, morals has nothing to do with religion in fact it is one’s decisions there are so called christians who have done terrible things e.g Hitler was a roman catholic.
      fear of god. you are being led by fear rather than thought or knowing right from wrong…
      if we were all close minded like you we would still be in the dark ages
      the bible is just another story book to keep you in check…for more books try reading…paka na panya, kaka sungura….they tooo teach some moral lessons

      Liked by 1 person

  4. Jboy
    March 24, 2015

    I despise not them, but their nature,
    Hypocrites they are, even in the leisure,
    All defend Him, ready to fight,
    Claiming the spirit, gives them the might,
    ‘The name of God’, all take it personal,
    Not taking note, He loves us all,
    Pagans, atheist and them the same,
    Pagans, atheist, before Him have fame,
    Belives in a bulding, for a church,
    My body His temple, and that’s the much,
    To keep the sabbath, but not the words,
    Love your neighbour, they hate rastas,
    Like a bad smell, from foul breath,
    I love my friends, but not their faith.

    Like

    • Dan Ole Moiko
      July 11, 2015

      jboy, you seem confused, you dont know what you are talking about. Do you even know the meaning of the word Atheist? How can God you deny existence of love you? How would you expect love from something not existing? Or what you were writing was coming from a mind deceived by something you inebriated?

      Liked by 1 person

    • linda smith
      January 7, 2016

      I agree with every thing you say Iam A believer Of Yawha wish is his name God is just A title Sabbath is A command Of YAWHA

      Like

  5. kelvin
    March 25, 2015

    Having been a christian for more than 20 years, i can now see the reality of things as a free thinker. why do we have to believe in illogical, fallacious ‘stories'(religious)& myths in real life at this time and age? i think its time we start thinking and reasoning on our own other than blindly adhering to doctorines that have no sense in real life. its time we be realistic in our thinking and reasoning and atleast bling a drop of sanity in kenya(and the world in general.

    Like

    • Robert
      April 3, 2015

      “i think its time we start thinking and reasoning on our own other than blindly adhering to doctorines that have no sense in real life. its time we be realistic in our thinking and reasoning and atleast bling a drop of sanity in kenya(and the world in genera”
      I believe that religious dogma is what caused or suppressed Human capacity of reason which enabled Galileo Galilei to challenge the Church and Albert Einstein to pave the way for relativity theory. Now to me this makes more sense than living in a world of miracles and revelations which have no bearing on reality..its like the complex number in mathematics. Human though needs to be free and not caged in religious doctrines

      Like

      • Dan Ole Moiko
        July 11, 2015

        Robert, what you think was paved by who? relativity theory? All that was there even before that theory came to be, you think what has been discovered wasn’t there before?

        Like

    • Dan Ole Moiko
      July 11, 2015

      Kelvin, at least stop that! bling or bring? nway, what reasoning do you mean? So whats special about this age and time in Kenya for you to think freethinking will change your situation? do you even have enough food for you to start free thinking? You say you were a christian for 20 years? Honestly, you were not, because if truly you were you would have known where the truth lies, but evidently, you never found it. Free think, but your thinking is limited.

      Like

      • Leonard
        August 11, 2015

        Since you want to mean that this freethinking has been there for ages! Ok, true maybe, but what makes it not to be palatable or done today. So your religion has been there for ages, what has it done to change anything? Nothing, just more pathetic living. Atleast what he meant is that people nowadays are more enlightened and can get more info than before, before we had no internet to get info or research your lies in form of a bible.

        Like

    • mwangi
      May 4, 2016

      This makes sense somehow. I was a christian for thirty years,but saw no sense in jesus died for our sins bla bla! Nothing is in this hypocritical belief. No proof,not even in the bible! Madness

      Like

      • munguout24
        June 23, 2016

        It is madness, for starters, what gets me is the fact that we africans are used as pawns to propagate this religions that do not have any deities that resemble us. For instance the mormon with joseph smith and his golden plates, it clearly was against black or africans people joining. The white members were discouraged from associating with the black/african race as it meant indulging with the devil. Fast forward, this religion needs members to spread, so what do they do? Welcome latter day saints(mormons), oh now africans are invited, they figured they needed the numbers, and yet u see africans with the mormon book, oblivious of its historicity.

        Islam, oh its fair for all, another lie, lets look at Bilal, the reason africans feel presented in islam. Bilal was initially a slave, rescued by mohammed. Bilal was only good for yelling the adan/call for prayer. During the times when the muslim men were marrying many wives, mohammed had a number not to forget he married a nine year old girl at age of 60. No woman was accorded to Bilal Why????, because they had to cut his lineage, Bilal is said to never have married but rather remained a “loyal servant of the prophet”, exactly the position they want us to remain, slave like, no question but follow. Actually after mohammed died, Bilal is said to have been sleeping and moaning at the place the “prophet” passed on. And the way mohammed is another fiction story

        Christianity, same crap, NO ONE NAMED JESUS EVER WALKED ON THE EARTH,
        its some africans stories, repackaged with white deities. Moses fake, if the ten commandments were the law, why was moses hiding after he killed the pharaoh soldier, if there was no law in place for murder?. because AFRICAN MAAT was the law, but of course moses is “white image” so to the africans, he is right.

        I long for the day will all wake up and realize the damage done to us by this religions. Them pastors know, after theology school meaning no one is “anointed” by God to preach, they go to college to learn the tricks. Some know its a game, but the benefits they get from the gullible people, its hard to give up. I mean a nice home, cars, trips and shopping, mmmh RICH CHURCHES, POOR SAINTS

        Like

  6. kelvin
    March 25, 2015

    Having been a christian for more than 20 years, i can now see the reality of things as a free thinker. why do we have to believe in illogical, fallacious ‘stories'(religious)& myths in real life at this time and age? i think its time we start thinking and reasoning on our own other than blindly adhering to doctorines that have no sense in real life. its time we be realistic in our thinking and reasoning and atleast bling a drop of sanity in kenya(and the world in general).

    Like

    • Bro Paul
      April 8, 2016

      Kelvin, you never were a Christian to begin with. You simply were born in a christian oriented background but never once got to Christ. Once you have met the Resurrected Lord, it is entirely impossible to deny Him even unto death. Contrarily, I never was a Christian and was a free thinker until my second year at the University; and by His grace, met Him. I now know what time I was a poor fool: Before or after my Conversion. Do not be in my state before conversion Bro. Run to the Lord, not to religion or church.

      Like

    • Makova snr
      April 18, 2016

      I know that all those that believe had a strong belief at one point in life, it only changed when shit happened. though I am an atheist too I think most atheists don’t know anything about atheism before they choose that path!

      Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        April 22, 2016

        Thinking and logic leads to Theism. It is an insult to God if we fail to think. The brain was designed to do precisely that, to think.

        Like

      • munguout24
        June 20, 2016

        Why do christians assume for one to be an atheist, something might have happened to them, oh well what about, I had a head collusion with the truth. Religion is just tricknology, there is no sky daddy/god/angels. Its just us, go figure. When you pray, you answer yourself and mostly you get up and do what you are praying for, when you succeed you give credit to god, but you had all it took to make it happen

        Like

      • Desmond
        June 21, 2016

        Hi munguout24, Mavova snr wrote that he is an atheist, that many people who turn to atheism do so in consequence of some tragedy (you know, “the God who wan’t there” hypothesis). Ironically, many people become Christians after personal tragedy too.

        Makova is also right to say: “…most atheists don’t know anything about atheism before they choose that path!” I think this kind are called emotional atheists. Those who do think deeply about the solemn implications of atheism and still choose it are “intellectual atheists.”

        You said, ” I had a head collusion with the truth….” Is truth knowable in an atheistic universe? Anyway, what truth convinced you of atheism and falsehood of Christianity?

        Like

      • munguout24
        June 22, 2016

        So because Mavova snr said it must be true? it may apply to some, but for me nothing happened, reading the bible can easily turn a doubting person an atheist straight up.

        Religion does not require you to ask questions about its originality because you will know the truth. What you don’t know is that, when the so called your white gods brought you christianity, the africans had their system of worship with no images, thats where u got tricked. The white man just placed his image to be the look of your unseen god. Since then africans being going crazy worshipping a naked ass white man on the cross as their god. WAKE UP n leave that crap. You are the God you are looking for.

        Like

      • Desmond
        June 22, 2016

        Hi munguout24,
        So you say, “reading the bible can easily turn a doubting person an atheist straight up.” Well, you also said that how other people become atheists does not apply to you. Why should the way you become an atheist apply to others?! Other people have read the Bible and founded great civilisations from which you have personally benefited.

        You have really strange sayings… but I’ll try to take you seriously for arguments sake. So let me reflect your views back at you.

        There were no atheistic cultures in Africa. Atheism was a white man’s idea. Africans had a system of worship in which involved prayers to ancestors, sacrifices and worship in sacred places. But the white man came with his education and taught the African to speak and write in English. Then he indoctrinated the African with his idea that human beings came from monkeys. And some Africans actually believed the white man!

        The white man also said that since the African was black, he was only half human and was the closest kin to the monkeys. But the white man insisted that he himself was fully human and should therefore take the African as his slave. The white man also killed the Herero tribe of Namibia and took their skulls to show his countrymen how the African was a close kin of the apes.

        So you wake up and stop believing the white man’s foolishness. Think for yourself.

        Also, Jesus was not a “white man.” He was Jewish, a Semite who lived his entire life in the Middle-East. White men are Caucasian people of European origin, you know, like Charles Darwin and Richard Dawkins.

        So I am the god I’ve been looking for? Are you sure? Me? How come I never knew this? Oh, but wait just a minute… why do I need you to tell me I am a god, shouldn’t I have already known that on my own? At least human beings know they are human. What kind of a god doesn’t know he’s a god?! Unless this is “The God Delusion” idea!!!

        So which religion does not require questions of originality? And what questions did you have about the Bible? If I cannot answer, then you have a better foundation for your perspective than I do.

        Like

      • munguout24
        June 22, 2016

        Hehehe, i can see you have some grasp on african history good job on digging on that. Now can you tell me how christianity as a religion came to be, of course thats one area most religious people will not attempt to read, because u are afraid of the truth.

        There was NO MAN who walked on this earth by the name JESUS, and mentioning he was a semite or whatever, does not make it true. SNAP out of that religious psychosis and free yourself from “god bondage”. One thing i can agree is that the africans worshipped/pay tribute to ancestors. You are the God you are looking for, as in you got all you need, Que. When did God answer or drop anything for you when u needed. You have always went out to seek help from fellow humans. The white man just drilled in your head that you not capable of doing any things by yourself and hence become dependent on him/your God, thats why its so hard for any african to take credit of any efforts, its has to be ” i couldn’t do it, but God deed it”

        Desmond, i am not willing to go into bible versus, i have done my debating with christians, and all they do is just mental acrobatic, usual religious rhetoric, cherry picking verses and ignoring those that make them uncomfortable.

        WAKE UP, and see that religion has not benefitted us in anyway, we so want to believe it has, few moral verses in the bible and atrocities orchestrated by a “loving God” my foot.

        I am happy to be free of religion especially when no deities look like us. European got a blonde blue eyed man as their god image, hindus the same, muslims got mohammed, an arab. What do we have? Devil is black, and you wonder why majority are confused.

        Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        June 23, 2016

        I have followed you comments and I will respond to you in THREE PHASES just to highlight some of the issues that have caught my attention.

        First, no Christian FEARS the truth, in fact truth SETS FREE and its intolerant of error. Even if still some people may fear truth (and I hope you dont) still that in and of itself does not strengthen you case, not in the slightest degree. Its not a form of evidence FOR OR AGAINST anything.

        Secondly, you are STILL holding to the LONG DEBUNKED Christ myth theory (Jesus Mythicism) that claims Christ NEVER EXISTED as a HISTORICAL person. It means you ARE NOT up to date on the subject. The historicity of Jesus and his crucifixion by Roman civil power is a universally accepted HISTORICAL fact. His IDENTITY is the subject to question. Was He what He claimed to be is the matter.
        My last posting and questions on this point went begging!

        Thirdly, unwillingness to go to bible verses bespeaks or suggests of an UNDERLYING fear of truth or WILLFUL IGNORANCE. I mean how do you REFUTE what you don’t read? I mean how would you take me when I debunk evolutionary claims but claim DON’T READ for me any scientific journal. I would be a serious critic right? Of course not!

        This is just to set the mood for my next comments on your claim that you are FREE from Religion, in a strict sense, from the CHRISTIANITY AND BIBLICAL PHILOSOPHY.

        In my next two postings I will demonstrate to you that the self-proclaimed FREEDOM is not REAL freedom but SUPPOSED freedom. Your statements will be unsurprisingly ROOTED in biblical philosophy with terrible exactness.

        Regards

        Victor Shikuku

        Like

      • munguout24
        June 23, 2016

        I will repeat again “There has never been a man that ever walked on the earth in human form of any race, creed, or color by the name Jesus Christ. I know you gave a list of name of people who wrote “about jesus”, them fake jews, of course they wrote by design. Where are the people who saw him???. New testament written 200 yrs after fake jesus, all pauline doctrine.

        When your God, Colonizers, and Savior are one and the same, you became an agent of your own destruction. Aint no sky daddy, and aint no pie waiting for you when u die. Why haven’t this God came to the aid of the millions of africans suffering?, why would he not wand his magic stick and stop them lunatics who killed the college kids in northern eastern, actually one of the student was praying to God but she/he still got murdered. Your God is very non existent, no evidence of his fake mighty works

        Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        June 23, 2016

        In this segment, I will now address TWO WORLDVIEWS described in the introductory chapters of the BIBLE, namely Genesis 1:1 to Genesis 3:5. We may consciously (which is the best) or sadly unconsciously subscribe to either of the two. FREEDOM from the TWO biblically described worldviews I will argue, leads to more ABSURDITY.

        Though its agreeable that the divide is between rational, purposeful, intelligent causal of the Universe (design) and a mindless, purposeless, chance driven cause of the universe (coincidences), I will outline the MAIN CLAIMS of the FIRST WORLDVIEW described in Genesis 1 and 2 that shape Christian thought then in my final posting I will examine the claims of the second worldview also described in Genesis.

        THE MAJOR CLAIMS OF GENESIS 1-2

        1. In the BEGINNING GOD (Genesis 1:1): The first claim is that any explanation of the beginning of the Universe requires a SELF-EXISTENT UNCAUSED CAUSE. There can not be an INFINITE REGRESSION of events and causes. In this context, the uncaused cause is God.

        2. God CREATED (Genesis 1:1): This claims that the universe is FINITE with a BEGINNING. The universe (space, time, matter, energy, information, laws) is NOT ETERNAL. Also, the universe came into existence from NOTHING (not pre-existing material) but with an ACTIVE CAUSE.

        3. Plants and animals are DISTINCT orders of life forms with an impassable barrier/constraint to overlap. Each produces after its OWN KIND (Genesis 1:11,20)

        4. Mankind is a TOTALLY separate order of life form DISTINCT from plants and animals (Genesis 1:26-27). Man is not an advanced animal.

        5. Mankind by DESIGN reflects distinct characteristics of reasoning, logic, intelligence, morality and is social. He is to tame the animal kingdom, name creatures, feel lonely and need mate and so forth (Genesis 1:27-28; Gen 2:20)

        6. Life is not an INHERENT property of matter (Genesis 2:7)

        7. The universe begins with MAXIMUM ORDER and perfection (Genesis 1:31) and would latter decay with increasing disorder (ENTROPY) due to violation of moral and Physical laws (Genesis 2:15-17)

        8. Male and Female exist by DESIGN with intricate COMPATIBILITY (mental, physical, sexual) for relational and reproductive purposes (Genesis 2:18)

        9. The universe come from a SEQUENCE OF DAYS of designing each of activity resulting to FINE TUNING to sustain life. (Gen 1:1-31)

        10. Peace, love, joy, safety are ONLY achieved by OBEDIENCE to an IMMUTABLE ABSOLUTE LAW of God. Disobedience to the laws ONLY results to MISERY. The principles of the laws were embedded in one command (Genesis 2:16-17).

        11. Mankind, unlike plants and animals, is by DESIGN endowed with a FREE WILL POWER. With ability to choose to willfully Obey or Rebel (Genesis 2:16-17)

        12. A seven days WEEKLY CYCLE was design and intended for UNIVERSAL use for Chronology and time reckoning (Genesis 2:1-3)

        13. Guilt (psychology), loneliness (sociology), naming of creatures (science), God (philosophy), time reckoning (chronology/history) and morality are by DESIGN all faculties of man

        14. The BEST DIET to sustain man’s life with good health and longevity (long-life) is VEGAN-plant based diet. All dietary needs for mankind can be supplied from a vegetarian diet. (Genesis 1:29)

        The above claims seem simple but they are sufficiently sound, observable and true. Where science is required the claims are hold, where philosophical argumentation is needed the claims equally suffice. It gives meaning and appeals to all REASONABLE people of ALL walks of life and status.

        This is the basic foundation of the first worldview described in Genesis. The next posting I will present the SECOND PHILOSOPHY, its argumentative claims, as described in Genesis 3.

        Regards

        Victor Shikuku

        Like

      • munguout24
        June 23, 2016

        Good morning/afternoon.

        Oh well, as i said christians cherry pick bible verses that are pro their argument. If the whole book is supposedly “holy”, why do we have such filthy verses that christians like you will love to ignore. So in this verse, your God is actually dictating this filth “She lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of the horses” Ezekiel 23:20. Your God also has temper and tantrums like when some boys were laughing at Elisha and “He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord” and two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty two of the boys 2 kings 2: 23-25.

        Clearly those are just a few of the nasty messages in that unholy book, but as i had stated earlier, its futile to go back and forth with verses, especially when you come back rebuttal will be you trying to explain what “God” might have meant by those verses. Another annoying aspects of christians, trying to speak for God.

        If your God is that powerful, know it all entity, how is it possible for mortal man to come close to “understanding what he meant or wants or needs us to do? N why is it that he only “talks” to a man when there is no witness, like mohammed in the desert, a fake pastor trying to convince his gullible followers the lord spoke to him and gave him wateva message. No one God has come down to verify any thing. Its just humans doing it?

        Nobody answered this question “if the law came about when moses received the ten commandments, why was he hiding after he killed the pharaoh soldier” this shows there was a law already in place against murder, so fake moses and fake burning bush, is just a myth, and besides, moses was learned and educated for 40 years in the egyptians(african) way

        Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        June 23, 2016

        I will now describe the THOUGHT SEQUENCE leading to the SECOND WORLDVIEW ALSO DESCRIBED IN GENESIS. Any reader, however hopelessly biased he might me, should readily see that I am NOT cherry picking verses but discussing my points TOPIC-WISE and therefore its very easy to respond to my post.

        This approach is intentional. To keep the SUBJECT in perspective otherwise its futile and literally burdensome to have a long or short post with an amalgamation of EVERY imaginable topic ALL MIXED in a paragraph. Answers can hardly be found in such methods.

        For example (without deviating much), Did the laws exist BEFORE Mt. Sinai? The critic says YES! What does the Bible say? A big YES TOO (Genesis 26:5, Genesis 13:13…). So is there a CONFLICT? NONE, and the point ends there.

        So, I will keep my comments subject per subject for ease. The first worldview and its MAIN CLAIMS are in my previous post and I ended by pointing that the claims are appealing to intellect and plausibly consistent where THE CLAIM has a scientific or philosophical implication.

        What is the THOUGHT SEQUENCE leading to the second worldview from Biblical perspective?

        1. Satan symbolized by a serpent HID/CONCEALED his identity behind some medium-the serpent (Genesis 3:1/Revelation 20:1).

        The point here is, HIDING behind a MEDIUM. The medium can take any form, SCIENCE not excluded.

        2. Questioning the authority of God’s word- “Did God say…..” (Genesis 3:1)

        Note that questioning something IS NOT in itself wrong (and we should) but rather the context is the THOUGHT SEQUENCE designed to lead to a particular worldview, which a the onset is HIDDEN to the listener.

        3. Misquoting/Misrepresenting the words of God-“Did God say ye shall NOT eat of EVERY TREE of the garden” Genesis 3:1

        On the contrast what God actually said and meant is quite opposite. God said “Of EVERY TREE thou may FREELY EAT (Genesis 2:16)

        That is, misquoting/misrepresenting the word of God to set stage for argument and open we for the intended philosophy.

        4. Claiming an argument CONTRARY to God’s word that the disobedient WILL NOT DIE: Ye shall not surely die (Genesis 3:4)

        Actually, this same old LIE that sinners will NOT SURELY DIE has taken many forms today, like, the sinners will BURN ETERNALLY IN HELL, they shall not surely die.

        This argument forms the THOUGHT PROCESS of Genesis 3 leading to some philosophy yet to be disclosed!

        5. When you DON’T FOLLOW GOD and disobey Him by transgressing the command then YOUR EYES ARE OPENED (Genesis 3:5)

        The underlying argument proposed here is the claim that those who are obeying and following God ARE BLIND. Blind faith, blind obedience, ignorance and so forth. To set oneself apart from God is claimed to be ENLIGHTENED, eye opening experience.

        6. That man can be god.Ye shall be as God (Genesis 3:5). His eyes will be opened to realize HE IS THE GOD he has been looking for.

        This is the actual philosophy now disclosed, that man is the god. He is the ultimate lawgiver, ruled by no one. All along, he was in blind obedience. The arguments 1-5 were setting the stage for the worldview now explicitly communicated.

        7. Man does not need God to define good and evil. Ye shall be as God knowing good and evil (Genesis 3:5)

        At this point, now that the philosophy is explicitly brought out of the bag, the question of MORALITY, how to know and settle what is good and evil must be addressed,, and the claim is given ITS INTRINSICALLY WITHIN YOU for man is the god.

        IN SHORT HERE IS PATH:

        1. Concealing the INTENDED philosophy BEHIND SOME MEDIUM

        2. Question (not sincerely) and cast willful doubt on the word of God

        3. Misquote the words of God

        4. Appeal to the lie of eternal life (no death) of sinners possibly in a burning hell or any other brand of the same lie as argument

        5. Claim that obedience to God is blindness. To reject Him is to be eye-opened

        6. That man is the god the world is looking for (the ultimate philosophy)

        7. Man doe not need God in the question of morality (good and evil)

        This is the PATHWAY described by the BIBLE as the means/method leading to the second worldview.

        I can say that this is the very thing I have been reading here in recent post. A testament that we have not truly FREED ourselves from GENESIS. Some have (possibly unconsciously) espoused and propagated another worldview described in the bible, supposing that they are indeed totally free from the Bible. Certainly NOT.

        A more thought provoking point to consider how Genesis would aptly represent these two view. Its reasonable and just to willfully subscribe to the first.It is OPEN, PRACTICAL and RATIONAL in itself.

        Regards

        Victor Shikuku

        Like

      • munguout24
        June 23, 2016

        Shikuku, all you are writing is religious/biblical jargon, that makes u feel somehow you have reached a mastery level with your unholy book. I quoted some filthy verses for you, of course i never expected you to address, since as usual it takes the holiness out of your fake bible.

        I know pastors/religious coons benefit by keeping people ignorant with bibles mambo jambos, i don’t blame them, they need their good houses , money and life style paid for by the gullible sheep in your church.

        So if the bible admits there was law before moses got the ten commandments, which are derived from the 44 negatives of the africans. My question who had given the law? or did the just, pure know it all God make a mistake and had to correct some of his commandments?

        I did a snap shot of what you wrote because i understand clearly your responses are meant for the christians who visit here, with an aim to keep them locked in within the religious web.

        I gave you a scenario where God was needed to verify himself, but he didn’t and so goes with every other situations we face, NO GOD/OR CALVARY is going to save us, it will take US, you and me. Until then keep hoping for a white man to one day crack the sky and come to your rescue. Africans as a collective of people pray hardest, following this BS doctrines (Belief Systems) and yet we remain at the bottom pit, used as pawns to propagate other people agendas. Am sure with the influx of chinese people in kenya, kenyans buddhists will be a common things. We just follow, we abandoned our ways, and now we cling on anything that does not look like us. SAD.

        Like

      • Desmond
        June 23, 2016

        Hi,
        I am posting my reply shortly.

        Like

      • Desmond
        June 23, 2016

        Hello munguout24,
        It seems like you’re really angry with white people. Perhaps we’ll address that eventually. But I am very happy you responded, so at least you’re showing yourself as objective and reasonable as an atheist ought to.

        Now, I want to address all your prominent challenges. I hope I can do so to your satisfaction. You’re free to challenge me when you feel I’m being evasive. I don’t have all the answers about Christianity by any means, but I do study it deeply and I can give you a reasonable response.

        You wrote: “ can you tell me how christianity as a religion came to be, of course thats one area most religious people will not attempt to read, because u are afraid of the truth.”

        That might be true of some, but not of all Christians. How did Christianity begin? Well, I think you know. You said you read the Bible for yourself.

        The exact time of its beginning depends on the individual historian’s perspective. I would say Christianity begun in Jerusalem when Jesus begun His ministry at the age of 30 (around 27 AD) as an itinerant preacher who mostly taught about the Kingdom of God. His followers were first called “Christians” in Antioch, a term first intended to be derogatory then it stuck. Antioch was the first Christian church outside Israel. According to the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea from AD 26, so Pilate was a contemporary of Jesus Christ.

        You wrote: “There was NO MAN who walked on this earth by the name JESUS, and mentioning he was a semite or whatever, does not make it true”

        Yeah, I saw this one coming. And it’s one of the proofs that you are not serious about history. I tell you what, I’ll cite secular source only. Other sceptics in this forum have questioned the existence of Jesus outside the New Testament and have been responded to by Victor Shikuku and myself. So I’ll give you a quick overview.

        The Zeitgeist movie by Peter Joseph promoted the idea that Jesus never existed. The movie presents fiction as though it were history. It’s claims have been thoroughly debunked, I even posted a link on this page. Another proponent of the Jesus myth is Richard Carrier who makes himself ridiculous. Dan Brown acknowledges Jesus, but then says that Jesus was married. Bart Ehrman is also a skeptic and historian who believe in the historicity of Jesus.

        The following are secular historians who wrote of Jesus back in the first and second century: Tacitus (AD 55-120), Flavius Josephus (AD 37), Suetonius (AD 69-130), Pliny the Younger (AD 112), Tertullian (AD 155 – 240)…. Others are Phlegon (freed slave who wrote histories), Lucian (Greek satirist), Celsus (Roman philosopher), Mara Bar Serapion (prisoner awaiting execution), Suetonius, and Thallus.

        You didn’t cite any source for your belief that Jesus Christ never existed. Did you intend that I should believe your claim on faith? Even Christians need arguments backed up by evidence sir. Or is it possible that you so much wanted atheism to be true that you were willing to only listen to authorities who supported your desired conclusions? Are you are setting the bar very high for Christianity’s proof and very low for atheism’s proof?

        Here’s an excerpt from an article titled “An Atheist’s Defense of the Historicity of Jesus.” It was posted on Patheos website that has several atheist contributors. Part of the article reads:

        “ …While highly colored by religious bias, the amount of information we have about Jesus is still impressive in comparison to any other non-official person of his time, even when pared down the most essential details. It’s true that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. But it’s not extraordinary to claim that an itinerant Jewish preacher got in trouble with the law and was executed, nor in that day and age would it be extraordinary to see a following emerge around his life and teachings. “

        He concludes, “I suspect that many non-theists would love the vindication of discovering that the whole Jesus story was made up from start to finish… And I don’t think it makes us look very objective when we too eagerly embrace a position which contradicts an almost universal consensus among those who have devoted their lives to the academic discipline which concerns itself with these matters. We of all people should know better.” (Source: An Atheist’s Defense of the Historicity of Jesus by Neil Carter

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      • munguout24
        June 23, 2016

        Hi Desmond,

        Since you like to quote and mention names. Here is one Bernard Shaw – “The Bible is the most dangerous book on the Earth, keep it under lock and Key” keep the bible out of your children’s reach

        Like

      • Desmond
        June 23, 2016

        LAST HALF….

        Hi munguout24, pole I had to split my response. I was having a technical problem. it continues directly from the previous comment….

        Please go to the site and read the rest of his review. Tim O’Neill is another atheists who debunks some bad objections to the historicity of Jesus. Please go online and search the article: “An Atheist Historian Examines the Evidence for Jesus” by Tim O’Neill.

        And remember, Jesus’ first followers went to their executions testifying that Jesus Christ had risen from the dead. If Jesus hadn’t risen and showed Himself openly to them, they could not possibly have accepted to die for what they KNEW was a lie.

        I’m confused about your “I am god” theology. Especially since you are an atheist. I thought atheists don’t believe in any gods, how again can an atheist be god? Unless you’re not really an atheist after all! Autotheism is the belief that the self (you) are god. You had said that “, reading the bible can easily turn a doubting person an atheist straight up.” So please clarify for me.

        You wrote: “The white man just drilled in your head that you not capable of doing any things by yourself and hence become dependent on him/your God, thats why its so hard for any african to take credit of any efforts, its has to be ” i couldn’t do it, but God deed it””

        I see you’re still going on about white people. Sounds like you really don’t like them sir. Why is that by the way? I’d like to know.

        Incidentally, this idea that you’re pushing about “I am god”…isn’t this a New Age concept? I think the New Age movement started in Western countries. Yes, there’s a mix of Hinduism in there as well as Darwin’s evolution… but it has a distinctively American and European! Shirley MacLaine popularised this “I am god” mantra in the movie” Out on a Limb.” She is “white people.” I don’t know if you knew this. It has no African origin. But I gave you my objections to it earlier. Plus I think it’s narcissistic, it is self-love taken rather too far.

        You wrote: “WAKE UP, and see that religion has not benefitted us in anyway, we so want to believe it has, few moral verses in the bible and atrocities orchestrated by a “loving God” my foot.”

        Okay, okay… Try to stay calm. Once again you’re making an assertion. First, one you’re not showing any documentary evidence. Second, history itself is so extremely against this assertion. Let me explain. The 20th century alone has had more mass murders than all the previous centuries put together. It is estimated that up to 170 million people were killed by their own governments during peace time. Professor R.J. Rummel coined the term “democide” to describe death by government. Now you say that the Bible is behind atrocities?

        Well, remember the Herero people I mentioned earlier? It is said that their massacre was the first holocaust of the 20th century. This was done by Germans who believed in Darwin’s theory. R.J. Rummel was a professor of political science at the University of Hawaii. He spent his career studying data on collective violence and war with a view toward helping their resolution or elimination. Below are some of his estimates:

        Joseph Stalin – 42,672,000; Mao Zedong – 37,828,000; Adolf Hitler – 20,946,000; Vladimir Lenin – 4,017,000; Pol Pot – 2,397,000

        Stalin, Mao, Lenin, and Pol Pot they were Marxists. Marxism has a strong anti-religious ideology. Karl Marx himself was an atheist. Hitler was a neo-pagan who hated Jews partly for starting Christianity. In all likelihood, these were atheists who believed in Darwin’s evolution.

        Whatever figures you could come up with for Christianity’s atrocities, there is no way they can compete with the astronomical numbers of atheistic regimes!

        You wrote: “I am happy to be free of religion especially when no deities look like us. European got a blonde blue eyed man as their god image, hindus the same, muslims got mohammed, an arab. What do we have? Devil is black, and you wonder why majority are confused.”

        I’m not convinced that a good reason to throw out Christianity is because Africans do not have a unifying deity of their own. Sounds more like envy, I think. And you’re not happy to be free of religion sir, you’re happy to be free of the “white man’s religion”. You are still religious, since you believe that you are god.

        I strongly disagree with you on historical and theological grounds, but I’m still quite interested in knowing more about you; what you believe and why you believe it. You can challenge me on any point I’ve made, I’ll be happy to clarify my statement…or take them back if proven wrong.

        Looking forward to your response.

        Pleasant day.

        Like

      • munguout24
        June 23, 2016

        Hi Desmond, Geez i see you wrote a book and to be honest i just skimmed through. Just to address a few of what i gathered from my snap shot.

        Zeigeist movie has been debunked” christianity is a “multi billion business” of course some will go there way to fake crap up, to keep people like you and many others caught up in the matrix. you resonate with the debunked version coz thats where you find some solace, and its not even comfortable to begin detoxing from religion, its an addiction, and an opium for the people, i am sure you have read that before.

        For my sanity, i will not pick bible verses, for the same reason i gave Mr Shikuku, you may read my post to him. Its futile. If christianity started with jesus at age of 30, What was in place then? assuming God has always exited before time (find it absurd), so the people who were living before jesus was crafted, what was there religion?

        I know desmond, as africans we have been indoctrinated real good with those white images, n thats why you came in defend of your colonizers, if the fake jesus ever comes back, looking non african, scramble for your life, coz he will be coming for the africans final annihilation lol. I don’t hate them, but i hate their religious doctrines of manipulation

        There is a lot of ungodly things as per a christian perspective, going on in the western world too, but why them missionaries have not cleansed their own, but will come to africa and other parts of poor world to give a dose of a glorious after life, while they are living in big earthly mansion, driving nice earthly cars and other nice earthly goodies. Why does the poor man/people have to have it good after they die?

        Religion was brought to us by design, and with an agenda. Okay seems like you not getting what i mean that you are the god u looking for. When you pray, you answer yourself, NO GOD answers

        Like

      • Desmond
        July 23, 2016

        Hi munguout24,
        Pole sana for the long delay. I just saw your comment today and decided to respond immediately. I thought you’d gone MIA on me. But I’m glad that you’re still in the, um, foxhole! I’ll try to keep my response short.

        The reason my previous comment was long is because it was dripping with facts and evidences for Christianity. If not that, then I was giving you lots of ammunition to destroy Christianity with. You chose to skim through it instead. And that makes it quite clear that you already knew that atheism is an inept opponent to Christianity. You have no idea how much I was holding back.

        You say I am caught in the matrix? That religion is the opium of the people, huh? So how have you disproved Christianity with these assertions? Richard Dawkins is raking in the big bucks now because he has converts like you completely taken in. And if there is a God then your atheism is the opium; it is your hope to never encounter Him. But that does not prove Christianity either, does it? I do admit that I find a lot of solace in Christianity. So what?

        I’ve read Shikuku’s comments and I think he makes a good historical case for Christianity. But you have a prior commitment to your personal autonomy as a “god” in your own right. So the existence of the true God is unbearable to your god delusions and you’d rather keep your head in the sand and not hear even of the clamour of your own conscience.

        I think it’s hypocritical of you, who has accepted Western atheism and logic, to judge my acceptance of a Jewish religion. Who is the bigger slave of the mind here? All the important atheists thinkers known are white folk! Did you know Dawkins’ family made its fortunes through slavery? So who is defending his colonisers really? Jews have been persecuted by white people, especially by Hitler who said they were an inferior race! There are also black Jews in Ethiopia. At least I can relate to the Jews on many levels!

        About missionaries living a glorious earthly life… well, you cannot take the deviant examples as the mainstream. You know that Christians have the New Testament for their faith and practice. Jesus reserved His most severe condemnation for the rich religious hypocrites who took advantage of the poor. Jesus’ closest followers were poor and despised wanderers from the beginning and throughout history. A Christian who flaunts his wealth is imbibing more from Napoleon Hill than from the Bible. Jesus asked His followers to be ready to abandon earthly riches and honours.

        Religion was brought to us by design? Ok, let’s say it is so. So what? Education and technology have also come to us by the same route. I’ve not read your denouncement of them. And I still think that your idea of being your own god is what the New Age promotes.

        I really hope you will read this and respond.

        Nice Weekend bro…

        Liked by 1 person

      • munguout24
        July 30, 2016

        Hallo Desmond.
        I will start by correcting you am not a bro but an african sister, mmmh i thought your know it all God would have revealed this to you in his mysterious ways hehehe but of course not, since am realistic enough to know that aint happening, its takes ME to “prophesy” that to you lol.

        Okay you got this assumption that atheist is sought of a religions started by dawkins, thats what i say, christians will always play the retarded card, you know clearly that atheism simply means lack of belief in a deity. Something else, history illuminates the past, for you to say that education, technology is a white man invention, totally tells me how limited you are in your history of the african originality of civilisation. They gave to the world arts, music, sciences, mathematics, medicine waaaaay before the white man set foot in africa. The only disadvantage is that our ancestors were purposely excluded from the history books so that the world would not know of our greatness. Yes the africans jews are original “jews”, but your term of jew today refers to the fake ashkenazi in today Israel, that you really believe are the chosen people of your fake GOD,

        So what happened to the ethiopian jews who went to the modern day israel?. Your chosen people sterilized their women, reduced their numbers from millions to a few thousands. Until the african knows thyself, mmm we will continue to be played psychologically and dance to the tune of the white Gods. We gave education, nothing to the world, STOP reading the pseudo european propaganda that is meant to keep you feeling inferior.

        Like

      • Desmond
        July 30, 2016

        Hi munguout24,
        I am embarrassed to have addressed you imagining you were a brother, kumbe…. I apologise for that. If only I knew. In any case, there is nothing I’ve written that needs to be changed because of this. Which is why God saw no reason that it was not important for me to know that you are a sister.

        I do wish I knew your name, though.

        What I do wonder is why atheists are so mean. It bothers me quite a bit you see, because I read a lot about what they write and they say that they are rational and scientific. But they talk about their intellectual opponents as though they belong in asylums or are not worthy of life! Africans have always been taught by their grandparents to respect others, even if you didn’t like them. Hasn’t that been the African tradition? So I know that you and I can get along with civility, yes? Let Westerners be the nasty ones, not us.

        Your view about the African civilisation sounds interesting. I have heard some African Americans say such things. How can I get my hands on the documents that detail all this? I like to check out claims before I decide whether to accept them.

        I don’t think that there has ever been an African society that was atheistic. All African societies have retained some oral traditions and none, so far as I know, had a lack of belief in a deity as you describe yourself. So please share your sources on this too.

        Also about the plight of the Ethiopian Jews, it seems tragic! Kindly tell me where to read about this.

        I don’t think Dawkins started atheism. I believe that it is a Western idea, particularly the Greek. Will Durant claimed that the African pygmies were atheistic… but they believe in a forest spirit.

        I think it’s too late for you and me to reverse our being westernised. Ngugi wa Thiong’o had the vision of the African mind being decolonised. But he went back to America to his university professorship and his American dream life. African Americans like Al Sharpton and Louis Farrakhan talk about how superior the African is, but they won’t move here to live with us to rebuild that original African civilisation. Sharpton is a liberal Christian and Farrakhan is Muslim.

        I guess if you are an African who uses English most of the time, wear Western-styled clothing, watch American movies, use phones and vehicles… or if you have a Western education, then your culture is irreversibly intertwined with the West.

        Does it bother you that Kenya is more European/American than it is African?

        Like

      • munguout24
        July 31, 2016

        Hello Desmond,

        Its okay, no biggie with not knowing my gender, of course since there cannot be a supernatural way of knowing, you had to get it from me. Here is something interesting you said though, that clearly answers the question why i say we are the Gods we are looking for.

        ” Which is why God saw no reason that it was not important for me to know that you are a sister. ”

        In the above statement, you took the position of God, by stating why you thought he did not reveal my gender to you, N that is what gets me with christians, you speak/think/answer for God, yet he is supposed to be such a powerful entity that a mortal human being cannot come close to comprehend his mind, but you just did. In this case you wrote your rationale of not being able to determine my gender ONLY that you employed it was what God wished. Am sure God did not whisper that to your ears, it was your own thoughts. N btw, the issue is not gender, just using it to illustrate how christians take the position of God to answer themselves. I hope you will not dwell on the gender part.

        “What i do wonder is why atheist are so mean they talk about their intellectual opponents as though they belong in asylums or are not worthy of life!” hahahah that was funny, i sure do appreciate some humor. Okay my opinion as to why you might feel that way when watching those debates between christians and atheist is that, most bible thumpers regurgitate the same crap over n over, they will refuse to reason, and the only prove they show is some verses in the bible, some christians do argue to a point of demonstrating some psychosis. Atheist on the other hand, use logic, want evidence, or simply accepting not knowing the answers. So it reaches a point the atheist feels its futile arguing with someone fit to be in an asylum heheheh. Thats how i can best explain your feelings about atheist.

        “Does it bother you that Kenya is more European/American than it is African?” I think we are so indoctrinated, brainwashed and literally our minds have been conquered by the white images of God and Jesus. What is happening in Kenya aint new to the whites nor is it the end of times/dunia. You been caught unawares and are fulfilling the european agenda. As i had quoted from the Golden stool by Edwin W. Smith – missionaries to africa. [pg 173] “To win a people to christ, it is necessary to europeanize them” and the most effective device that has been used to accomplish this agenda is the religion imposed upon the african ancestors called CHRISTIANITY. what we are seeing today, might be a surprise to us, but its what was expected to happen when they made sure to dissociate us from our spirituality, culture and history.

        Wow this gonna be long, let me break it here.

        Like

      • Desmond
        July 31, 2016

        Hi munguout24,
        Thanks for your quick response.

        Interestingly, atheists use the same old arguments as well. I have debated many atheists, and most of them reuse arguments against God that were knocked down long ago. Also, atheists do not use reason because it cannot exist from their worldview. If the universe has no Creator then it has no meaning to life, no design, no purpose. So concepts like ultimate truth, logic, morality, justice would be the illusions of the human race in a universe that happened by accident. It would be impossible for us to become scientists because we couldn’t learn anything since the universe would have been haphazard. Creatures would only care about feeding, fighting and reproducing.

        Truth, morality, meaning and value of life… are all religious concepts because they imply that life was designed for a purpose. These concepts have no significance in a world without meaning.

        The only reason why people get frustrated with their opponents is if they know that their explanations are inadequate. For one, the whole business of science is opposed to an atheistic worldview. Secondly, atheism is unable to tell us why anything is really right or wrong because no atheist has the absolute standard for measuring. Thirdly, atheism has not done anything for science or humanity… in fact it has created more suffering than all religions combined. I can demonstrate this if you want.

        Research has shown, however, that religious people cope with reality far better than atheists. Andrew Simms, the past president of the Royal College of Psychiatry in the UK, in his book “Is Faith a Delusion?” wrote: “The advantageous effect of religious belief and spirituality is ONE OF THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN PSYCHIATRY AND MEDICINE GENERALLY. If the findings of the huge volume of research on this topic had gone in the opposite direction and it had been found that religion damages your mental health, it would have been front-page news in every newspaper in the land.”

        He also says, “In the majority of studies, religious involvement is correlated with well-being, happiness and life satisfaction; hope and optimism; purpose and meaning in life; higher self-esteem; better adaptation to bereavement; greater social support and less loneliness; lower rates of depression and faster recovery from depression; lower rates of suicide ….lower rates of alcohol and drug use and abuse….”

        Atheists statistically fare worse off. Some have even resorted to some form of religion.

        I’m not familiar with Edwin W. Smith. I suppose I agree with his statement only to a point. Interestingly enough, some of the forms of arguments you use for atheism are European, just as atheism is itself a European ideology. Christianity arose from the Middle East, as you know, Jesus being a Jew. But European missionaries brought it to Africa.

        So it seems that Europeans have made you an atheist and made me a Christian! That is funny.

        There are at least three Africans in the New Testament: The Ethiopian eunuch to whom Phillip preached the Gospel and baptised; Simon of Cyrene (North Africa) who carried Jesus’ cross; and Simeon, called “Niger” (the Latin term for black). Jesus Himself was hidden in Egypt to escape Herod.

        Let us test how reasonable you are: if it could be shown that the Bible was true (scientifically and historically)and that Christ rose from the dead, would you become a Christian? Please respond.

        Finally, consider what atheism is offering the world. The atheist Bertrand Russell wrote, “…the whole temple of man’s achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the débris of a universe in ruins!” So if there is no God, the universe we observe has no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

        Nice week!

        Like

      • munguout24
        August 2, 2016

        Hello Desmond, hoping all is well.
        I will try to respond to some of your claims the best i can.

        “I have debated many atheists, and most of them reuse arguments against God that were knocked down long ago.”

        Okay lets agree that only christians believed the argument were knocked down, because thats a safe place position for them and again, it takes human to attempt to prove/disaprove God. Why can’t this supposedly powerful creature prove himself to the million doubting Thomas’s, why is it taking us to do his job????.

        “Creatures would only care about feeding, fighting and reproducing.” Are you trying to say if there was no creator/God this is all we would be doing? mmmh i for the most part thats what most creatures do, animals live to hunt, eat, reproduce, so do the humans in a perfect world we can do without war, but its inevitable really.

        “Let us test how reasonable you are: if it could be shown that the Bible was true (scientifically and historically)and that Christ rose from the dead, would you become a Christian? Please respond. How can a non existent person be proved to have existed???. and yes once again you will quote bible. Christianity is a multi-billion business, and in order to keep the masses controlled, dug up fake graves of the non existent creature named jesus will be made to appear, but its only real to the christians. I mean its easy to make christians believe anything, especially us africans because we literally take the stories of the bible as truth. A snake once used to walk upright with legs i guess, but when it was cursed, it started crawling and its legs zoomed back to God, huh.

        John L Mackenzie, states in his book, Dictionary of the bible
        “The writing of the life of Jesus has been the major problem of NT scholarship for more than a hundred years, after numerous shifts of opinion, the consensus of the scholars is that the life of Jesus cannot be written. The reason is that the data for a historical biography do not exist. The only sources of life and teachings of jesus are the four gospels. The contents of the Apocryphal gospels are historically worthless”

        N btw the meaning of apocryphal is fictitious books of uncertain authorship such as mark, luke, mathew and John gospel books. The main reason for not having any data or biography is because this spiritless, fake creature named jesus simply never existed. I hope i have answered your question.

        “So if there is no God, the universe we observe has no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.” i clearly don’t get what you trying to say here, or if God did not design the world, we would have no evil, that part would have been great, if he had the choice of creating a perfect universe, why make it imperfect then threaten us with hell fire?

        Like

      • munguout24
        July 30, 2016

        i meant to say we it all to the world, omit the nothing in the last paragraph

        Like

      • munguout24
        July 30, 2016

        N by the way am not a convert of dawkin. i came to my own conclusion that there is no sky daddy. I would rather pray to my grandfather whom i can attest to his existence, than to a fake white image of a God. My grandpa is more of a true GOD as compared to your sky daddy. My mother is God, my father is GOD, and I am GOD too

        Liked by 1 person

      • munguout24
        July 30, 2016

        I know your next question will be the same old and worn out adage of “What God can do man cannot do” crap. Show me what your sky daddy has done for you that you didn’t not get it done by yourself, n yes u will throw the usual, “its by his hand” yet only your hands were visible and the imaginary ones, mmm call it being delusional. Oh i hear you bringing evolution, everyone got their opinion, as we can agree if you call creation your God theory, but not a fact that can be proven, n yes to me evolution is a theory too. I will not shy to say that am not too much into sciences, more of a historian, but the science theory do make some sense to me compared to God who is supposed to have sprung from nothing, yet he wants to be given the credit of modeling/creating the rest.

        I go far as to the ones who nurtured me, my parents, if especially my MOTHER had abandoned me, probably i would not be alive today, or it would have taken another human being to pick me up, nourish me to be whom i am today. A baby left in the bush in the hands of God without human intervention, will DIE in days, unless of course you can prove to me otherwise. Oh well am sure you will be quoting from that unholy book with few moral verses again. GIVE me a real scenerio where your GOD intervened. 100 years later and i will be waiting

        Like

      • munguout24
        July 30, 2016

        n

        Like

      • Desmond
        July 30, 2016

        Hi,
        So what did your parents believe about God?

        Like

      • munguout24
        July 31, 2016

        Hello desmond,

        continuation here. as you stated ” I think it’s too late for you and me to reverse our being westernised” . We do differ here by what being westernized mean, are u referring being educated, dressing, stylish? if so, the african being the first people to inhabit the earth, and thus ‘GOD CHOSEN PEOPLE’, and here i don’t mean the entity of white GOD as you know him today. The africans, had education, form of writings, the medu-netcher or hieroglyhics, phonetic alphabet- today a misnomer called the Greek alphabet this were forms of writing during the ancient kemet-black africans (modern egypt) n by the way this was the 13th dynasty, way before the thriving nubian dynasty covering ethiopia, sudan, kenya, uganda. The Greeks were the first europeans to invade africa, given their proximity to egypt. Thats why they will always credit Greek as fathers of civilization, and exclude the africans, who indeed taught the Greeks. (with the introduction of greeks into the african scenario, so did the crafting of white jesus begin).

        Style- mmmh, we had it, adorning ourselves with earrings, bracelets, bangles was all african, look at the maasai, the oromo of south ethiopia and other cultures you will find, women with beaded bracelets, necklaces, so who copied who? and just dig into how your women/men from your tribe dressed, am sure you will find style. Okay, okay you will talk of some going naked, well, some cultures covered parts with skin, and considering we did not have perverts, the women left their breast out, to them it was not being naked (don’t forget there are nude beaches in the western world). lol i guess they have to copy everything hehehehe.

        The only westernized about kenya to me is taking up the tabia mbaya, disrespect, alcoholism – this was brought by your white jesus. He went to an african wedding and they were drinking water, n he changed it to changaaa. Think about that of your white Jesus, he is nothing but a source of destruction.

        My question is, what deities are your children praying to? I will tell you the muslims kids, see Allah as an arab, after all he spoke to the illiterate mohammed in arabic. white kids see God as white, just like them, Indians are very clear, all their dieties look like them. WHAT DOES THE AFRICAN CHILD SEE/IMAGINE GOD as he/she prays.

        Like

      • Desmond
        August 1, 2016

        Hi munguot24,
        What you are writing about the Africans being the first people and how the Greeks stole our advances… it all requires that I believe your word. You provide no documentary evidence I can check out, just your plain words. Should I also expect you to believe me when I talk of the truth of Christianity? Hm?

        As to Africans being first to inhabit the earth… Well, that is true according to Darwinism. The first humans lived in Africa (in Olduvai Gorge) and were dark-skinned. As human beings evolved further, their skin grew pale and lighter. So guess who is now closest to the ape according to Darwinian atheists? Mmhm… people like you and me! So I worry when Africans accept two things that undermine their native skin: evolution and atheism.

        You have talked about evidence. I have shown that am prepared to give that to you. But are you prepared to give yours?

        I have read some African history from African writers. My Dad was a lecturer and so he had all these books on West and East African history. There were several African civilisations, but they were all rather primitive with limited writing. Archaeology has not shown very great advances in our civilisations. Of course, I will keep researching, but your claims are so extraordinary that I must request you again… please share your sources.

        What deities are my children praying to? Well, we are reading through Luke’s Gospel right now. Let us say Jesus was white and God is white, these are not the best criteria for rejecting Christianity. A drowning person who refuses help because his rescuer is of a different race is just being irrational.

        Do you feel your views of white people are racist? If white people felt about you the way you feel about them… what would you call that?

        The form of atheism you have is distinctly western. White atheists argue exact dirty way that Africans atheists do. Many white atheists are also openly racist, which is why 82% of atheists in America are white while a meagre 4% are blacks. There is something about atheism that distasteful to black people.

        White people left our country more than 50 years ago. But look at how hateful Kenyans still are against different tribes. This is human nature.

        We all like to dehumanise people we feel are different from us. You are an atheist and I am a Christian, but we are both Africans… and yet someone reading our correspondence would be more aware of our spite for each other than our desire to disagree like civilised people. Sad, isn’t it?

        The human race need one unifying Truth that they can believe in. Christians believe that there is only ONE race: the human race.

        “From one man He [God] made every nation of men, to inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands,” – Acts 17:26

        We are all one blood, brothers and sisters after all.

        Like

      • munguout24
        August 2, 2016

        Hello desmond,

        I don’t expect you to believe anything, you seem to be a man who does a lot of research, n that what i thought you would do. You can start by reading Black man of the Nile and his family by Dr. Yosef AA ben jochannan, you will be ashamed to call your african people “primitive”. Dr yosef is an african from ethiopia, did an intensive research and exposed “Europeanized” African history. I mean the lies, most of the books we read about our history, were written by the same people who had an aim of subjugating us, hence the distortions.

        “Do you feel your views of white people are racist?” NOT AT ALL, there is nothing in my arguments that points to being racist, but of course i understand why you are using such a big term, when your Gods are challenged, its an obvious reaction from the subjects to raise up in defense. my definition of racism is different from your view, if i say the european lied about our history, to you thats a racist remark. oh well, most would disagree with you.

        “We all like to dehumanise people we feel are different from us” mmmh i don’t feel like i dehumanized anybody, and YES we are both africans, and from my side, i feel no spite towards you, neither do i believe anybody reading our correspondence would feel that way. We just happen to have different views/position to the subject at hand. N it just amazes me, that most christians will find spite, hate, imaginary wars where non exit.

        I asked the question, what does the african child see/imagine God when she/he prays? you answered what if they see a white God, exactly my point, this is where indoctrination begins, when an african child is made to see the most popular entity that has been bestowed all powers, DOES NOT LOOK LIKE HIM/HER, the african child takes an inferior/last position in the presence of the God look alike. Its no wonder, it becomes so hard as adults to detox ourselves from this images, we tremble when fake white jesus is challenged, we hang portraits of white jesus, white mary and child ( and by the way the i read pope prays and bows to the original african mother and child – the black madonna).

        Oh and by the way you said the europeans left our country 50 yrs ago, yes some physically did, and other were left deep imprinted in our mindset, the most dangerous place. phew.

        Okay, let me stop here for now. N i don’t have any spite, malice or hate toward you my african brother. I appreciate you deeply. Just different opinions. Take care.

        Like

      • munguout24
        August 2, 2016

        “There is something about atheism that distasteful to black people.”

        I get your point here, africans had their ancestral worships, as they tried to understand the world around them, but this practices were demonized, with the inception of christianity. For the africans to be accepted to the world of the white gods, they had to denounce their ways, and adopt a new way of worship that glorifies the white gods.

        Its important for the Arabs to make Allah an arabic for the sake of their children psych. Its vital for the europeans to craft a white looking God for the sake of their children, They know how this affects the child as they grow into adulthood. The Arab and Europeans, majority of them do see/view an african as inferior to them. Where do you think this begins?. Look at us, we pray to Allah- an arab man, we pray to white God, white jesus, white angels. Why don’t we do the same, if we have to pray to deities, at least make them look like us. Let the african child see himself as a child of a father/God who looks like them.

        As long as we keep exposing these non african images to our child psych, we are participating in our own destruction, while glorifying others?

        Like

      • munguout24
        August 2, 2016

        Hello desmond,

        What you wrote”So guess who is now closest to the ape according to Darwinian atheists? Mmhm… people like you and me! Okay there is a lot of controversies surrounding darwin theory, others say he prepared way for eugenics, there is a lot you can read about that and understand it better as a scientist. I think as a european writing in them days, of course he had to be biased. But seriously looking at the apes, whom do they resemble more. Apes have hair covering their entire bodies – if some european go without shaving for months, mmmm put him next to an ape- you get your copy. Apes have a flat back side, oh well, we know majority of africans back sides are protruded. So if a european says i look like an ape, he is more closer to them that we are lol

        Like

      • Desmond
        August 5, 2016

        Hi Sister,
        I am quite well, thank you. I hope you’ve been well yourself.

        I have decided to respond to your comments in four parts, yaani, corresponding to the four different comments you posted. This will be PART 1.

        Why can’t God prove Himself to millions of doubting Thomases? Well, He has. Christianity is the largest religion in the world, apparently these people believe they have sufficient evidence. On the other hand, atheists are the fewest in the world and their numbers seem to be shrinking since the 1970s.

        But to specifically address your question, let us consider what you are asking. How would God reveal Himself to His creation? If He, a Holy and omnipotent Being, personally appeared, the brightness of His holiness would annihilate anything that was unholy, and there would be no human beings left to see Him. When Moses insisted to God that He reveal Himself in Exodus, God had to first hide Moses to protect him from the brightness of His glory.

        So the only alternative is for God to reveal Himself “safely” to us. First, He has revealed Himself through His creation; second, through our conscience; third, through His Word and lastly through His Son.

        As to creation: There is no way the universe created itself and to believe that is logical nonsense as most scientists now realise. Whatever beings to exist has a cause. This Cause designed the universe instantly and intelligently (withal the laws in place), so it follows that an intelligent Being caused the universe to exist. As to conscience: all human beings know intuitively that God exists. But they suppress this knowledge because they don’t want Him to rule over them. As to His Word: The Bible is the only book in the world that has prophecies that came to pass and shows that the Jews are His chosen people. As to His Son: There are over 300 prophecies of the Messiah coming to the world at a specific time and do specific things. Only Jesus fulfilled those prophecies.

        I have greatly summarised these details. You can follow up later.

        If God did not exist there would be no meaning. Yes. The fact that you are engaged in this discussion shows that you care about your life having meaning. Human beings cannot bear a meaningless life, which is what happens when you have no hope. What atheism tells the world is that any hope we have is an illusion because the universe appeared by accident. That our lives have no ultimate purpose, that we are no better than animals. If there was no God then all your beliefs about life would be no different than mine, because both of us would be creating meaning for ourselves in a meaningless universe.

        You wrote: “. How can a non existent person be proved to have existed???”

        Think about your question sister. Your question has an in-built conclusion/assumption. You have already concluded that God is a non-existent person, so there is no point of asking the question. It is like a man being asked: “When did you stop beating your wife?” The question assumes that the man has been beating his wife. But does it apply to the man who has never hit his wife before? Similarly, your question does not apply to God.

        Consider what atheism is saying by comparison: The universe created itself totally by accident. Then, also totally by accident, a small planet formed in the solar system at just the perfect distance from the sun and this planet acclimatized itself with hundreds of perfect environmental conditions necessary to sustain life. Then, magically, life created itself. This life evolved to become birds and apes and people. Then this people started asking themselves if their lives have meaning.

        For you to be an atheist you have no choice but to believe that.

        About your John L Mackenzie quote… hmmm. My dear sister, you have misunderstood the quote vibaya tu sana. Let me explain. First of all Apocryphal books are those, as you yourself say, “ fictitious books of uncertain authorship.” Google the phrase “apocryphal books of the bible” and the following results will come up: The gospel of Thomas (or Judas, Mary Magdalene or Peter etc), or Maccabees and a host of others. The four Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) are called Canonical. Of the Apocryphal texts, Mackenzie says they “are historically worthless.” And I agree completely!

        Another mistake of your made in interpreting the quote is that Mackenzie also said “The only sources of life and teachings of jesus are the four gospels.” That puts your interpretation into a contradiction. Mackenzie was saying that all the sources we have for Jesus are the Canonical Gospels because the Apocryphal Gospels are historically worthless.

        Finally, Mackenzie was a Catholic theologian. If he believed what you believe about the Gospels then he would not be a Catholic but an atheist/agnostic.

        Jesus never existed? In that case, then Alexander the Great never existed either, nor did Aristotle or Napoleon Bonaparte or even Koitalel Arap Samoei … since we have over 10 times the number of earliest written records for Jesus’ life and work than we have about all these other people.

        About your question about why God did not create the universe perfect…. Sister, I think you already know the answer. The universe God first made was perfect. “And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good” (Genesis 1:31). Then Adam and Eve ruined it all.

        God gave human beings a freewill, to choose Him or reject Him. This message is repeated everywhere in the Bible. He won’t force anyone into Heaven who doesn’t want to be there. A person can have his independence from God, and that is exactly what everyone in Hell has. If you reject one suitor for another, you forgo every good thing you would have enjoyed from the rejected suitor.

        I’ll respond to your next comment in the post after this one (PART 2).

        Like

      • munguout24
        August 6, 2016

        Hello Desmond,

        “If He, a Holy and omnipotent Being, personally appeared, the brightness of His holiness would annihilate anything that was unholy, and there would be no human beings left to see Him. When Moses ……. insisted God had to protect him from his brightness”

        What a work of imagination right there my brother, where did you get this idea of brightness, its from the movies you have been watching as a child on white moses and ten commandments. Memory is stored in our minds as symbols, you have been exposed and indoctrinated with these white images since you were a child, so naturally those images are coming live in your mind now.

        “And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good” (Genesis 1:31). Then Adam and Eve ruined it all.

        Here you mean your all powerful know it all God was unable to foresee what this fake couple would do, yet am supposed to “believe” he is able to keep an account of all the billions of people in the world, plus keep a record of their sins, but he God was short of knowing what the only two people he created first were capable of doing.

        Wait a minute here Genesis 6:7. The Lord said,” I will blot out man whom i have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky: for I am sorry that I have made them.”

        Above verse, now God is regretting, mmm he wasn’t after all that happy at creating humans, what a God? i thought regrets, feeling sorry were human attributes, not for a such powerful entity. oooh i can see you coming up to explain what God might have meant and more bible verses.

        “He won’t force anyone into Heaven who doesn’t want to be there.”

        Once again my brother, you are speaking for God, how do you know that how God thinks or feels unless its your thoughts here. Considering there are 34,000 sects of christianity who differ in their God approach, so here you are speaking on behalf of which God?

        Lets not go about free will, coz if he is not it all, he should have not better that i will denounce his existence. The europeans colonized the african God first, so they could control the images of what africans see when they pray. N don’t give me God is a spirit, no color, why then do we have him depicted as white, his son is white and ask most african kids, what color is God, they will tell you white.

        Like

      • munguout24
        August 6, 2016

        I mean you know it all God should have known better that i was going to denounce his existence

        Like

      • Desmond
        August 5, 2016

        PART 2
        I promise to look up Dr. Yosef AA Ben Jochannan’s work. And I do know that a lot of what we have been taught about history has been distorted. There is a saying that goes “Beware the victor’s version.” Part of my great interest in history is to discover what else I’ve been lied to about (besides evolution). So thanks for sharing that.

        About the racism, I was only asking a question, not making an accusation. It never occurred to me that black people could be racist until I found that I myself was prejudiced again Indians. I did not hate them, I just disliked them until I got to know a few and realised that they were not what I thought they were. Racism is merely having the notion that one’s own race is superior to others. If you feel that black people are in any way more special than white people then you are crossing that thin line.

        I apologise for implying that you could be racist. I was concerned that from the beginning you have seemed angry at “white people.” I felt that that was an unfair and general stereotype since many white people are atheists just like you. If I am wrong, please forgive me.

        About your question about an African child imagining a white God when he prays. I think you have taken my words out of context. Here is what I wrote: “Let us say Jesus was white and God is white, these are not the best criteria for rejecting Christianity.” You are still pursuing racial distinctions as an argument against Christianity. This time you are implying that God is racist since you have imagined that He is white and will answer an African child’s prayer last. And this is why I asked you about racism. Do you see my dilemma?

        The second Commandment states: “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.” So everywhere you have seen God depicted as white is a clear violation of this Commandment and it is blasphemy. It is also idolatry for Catholics to bow to such images. The NT gives us no physical descriptions of Jesus, except that He was Jewish. So the pictures of Him having long hair and blue eyes bother me also. Paul wrote: “though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more” (2 Corinthians 5:16).

        No one ought to form an image of God when they pray, much less paint or sculpt what they imagine He looks like. He has strictly forbidden this practice. So if your picture of God is from some artwork, then that is not how God has revealed Himself to the world.

        I am thankful for your appreciation. That despite our differences we are still able to think of each other with respect. That to me is a great achievement.

        Like

      • munguout24
        August 6, 2016

        “This time you are implying that God is racist since you have imagined that He is white and will answer an African child’s prayer last. And this is why I asked you about racism. Do you see my dilemma?”

        Yes God as you know him today is RACIST, if your most powerful central figure of your faith system does not look like you, and it looks like another person, then if you love God, respect, then the people who look like that God will be more important to you than you value yourself. Thats why my bro, you are in defense of your white Gods

        African men for the most part hate to beg, it don’t matter how poor they could be, and are likely to go without anything for some days before approaching another man for help. But just look how some of the african men pitifully beg a naked white man on a stick/cross for help, some cry, roll, talk gibberish, go psycho in the presence of this homosexual image of Jesus in the hope he will restore their marriages, give food,or whatever you are begging for (What a shame). This fake creature has taken dignity of the african people. Sadly after the man/woman has beckoned the non existence creature for help and none is available, he now is left to face his fellow human being for assistance. What we do as africans, we live in the illusion of inclusion, thinking that we are included in the white man heaven.

        “No one ought to form an image of God when they pray, much less paint or sculpt what they imagine He looks like. He has strictly forbidden”

        It has already been done, and thats what you worship subconsciously, white images. N your powerless God has done nothing to stop it. These images have been imprinted in our african minds since childhood, dating back to when the europeans invaded africa, and God did nothing, you know why?, because he is the same one who colonized you, committed genocide during his conquest. So guess what, when you pray, you are praying to the same evil God, no wonder your prays never gets answered, but of course you assume he answers them.

        Like

      • Desmond
        August 5, 2016

        PART 3
        I do agree that white people changed many of our African practices. Many are for the better and others for the worst. I think that the decrease of FGM is a positive, as well as improving the status of women in Kenyan society and also education and science. On the other hand, Africans are more materialistic and covetous. We are becoming as unhappy as Europeans.

        And I have maintained that atheism came with the same ship that brought Christianity.

        You said “Let the african child see himself as a child of a father/God who looks like them.”

        A human being has a body, soul and spirit. God is a spirit and has a soul but has no physical body. He has said that all who worship Him should worship in SPIRIT and truth. Given that God has made African children in His own image, your wish is fulfilled since they are praying to their Father Who really does look like them.

        You had once written: “. A baby left in the bush in the hands of God without human intervention, will DIE in days, unless of course you can prove to me otherwise.”

        How many orphanages in Kenya do you know are run by atheists? And how many are run by Christian churches? Babies are often abandoned outside church doors. Interestingly, many atheists in America take their kids to Sunday school then pick them up later.

        Like

      • munguout24
        August 6, 2016

        Hello desmond

        “On the other hand,
        Africans are more materialistic and covetous. We are becoming as unhappy as Europeans.”

        I know you look at your fellow africans through the white man lenses. You agree the african is becoming unhappy as the europeans, what did you thing was to be the outcome?. The white God loves money, he is concerned about material stuff, look at the mega churches that are built for his worship, while his saints/children go hungry, no shelter, diseases, i mean, n plis don’t blame it on the devil because the devil is God’s agent, he does God’s dirty work for him. The white God that you pray to, does not give a damn about people who don’t look like him. We abandoned our “God” spirituality, so “God’s” first people (Africans are scattered everywhere, serving foreign Gods) i mean some africans are hare krishna’s, buddhists, mormons, jehova witnesses, arab worshipping, i mean islam. Since our ways were quashed, tainted, demonized by your white Gods. I choose to be an atheist to all those religions and belief in deities. WE ARE THE GODS.

        “How many orphanages in Kenya do you know are run by atheists? And how many are run by Christian churches? Babies are often abandoned outside church doors”

        Here my brother, you deflected from what i had said. I will repeat, a baby left in the bush in the hands of God without human intervention, will DIE in days, unless of course you can prove otherwise. I am sure you agreed with me, but you had to throw orphanages there not to come short of an answer for sake of your fellow christians. Clearly you can see that the women are wise enough to know that if they leave the children at church door step, a human being will take the child. She knows leaving the baby alone somewhere for God’s hands to nurture it, its death sentence to the baby. As an atheist i can appreciate anybody doing good for humanity, i applaud the christians who give human help to these children.

        Christians like to assume there is war against them, they need to feel attacked for their faith to flourish, if they are not fighting “spiritual warfare”, they are making war with atheists. If it wasn’t for the war with the imaginary devil, christianity would have no base or purpose.

        Anyway have a nice week ahead. N i feel like am done here. Stay in your “salvation”. N i will continue with my enlightenment. I will no longer go back to worshipping non existent deities, I am peaceful with that. N so it can be said the same for you with your jesus/god.

        It was a pleasure corresponding with you. Take care

        Like

      • Desmond
        August 5, 2016

        LAST PART
        I agree with you about that Darwin. He was a racist. The Title of his first book clearly indicates that he felt his race was more favoured than others. He also predicted that lower races (Africans and Aborigines) would be exterminated by the white races. Evolution has given racism a scientific justification.

        In America 82% of atheists are WHITE MALES. Only 4% are black people. If we examine the “science” of evolution and what its proponents say, it implies that Africans have NOT evolved equally with Europeans since they “evolved” in different continents.

        Evolution and racism are close kins.

        Thank you for your continued correspondence. I do truly appreciate it.

        Have a pleasant weekend.

        Like

  7. moses maina
    March 26, 2015

    Oh My God!

    Like

  8. Paul
    March 27, 2015

    Fools says in their own hearts “There is no God” sorry man, you shall know the truth and it will set you free.

    Like

    • sam
      November 25, 2015

      if fools can figure it out . why cant you

      Like

  9. Mick
    March 28, 2015

    Religion came about because humans are curious and weak like hell. For starters, why are there two accounts of creation in the Bible? Is it because the authors were too un-evolved to sync their ish together? Wow.. thank god i’m agnostic.

    Like

    • Monicah
      June 11, 2015

      which are the two accounts mick?

      Like

      • MK
        November 29, 2015

        Genesis 1:1-2:3 and Genesis 2:4-25.

        Like

      • MK
        November 29, 2015

        Genesis 1:1-2:3 and Genesis 2:4-25

        Like

    • VICTOR SHIKUKU
      January 12, 2016

      Mick there is only one account of creation in Genesis 1 in chronology, and an expansion of of how it happened in Genesi 2 and they are in perfect harmony. The supposed contradiction doesnot exist and the supposition that they are two distincts accounts is false. If this is the cause for agnostisim, you need not. It is as firm as daylight. You can believe.

      Like

    • Desmond
      June 21, 2016

      Hi Mick, when you say “Religion came about because humans are curious and weak …” are you not making up stories about the past for which you have no primary sources? Stephen J. Gould called this type of subjective argument “just-so” stories. Just like Rudyard Kipling’s and Aesop’s fables.

      There are no two accounts of creation. Genesis 2 describes the details of day 6. If man evolved, which stimulus conjured the concept of “God”? There is no stimulus in nature that directly corresponds to an omnipotent, omniscient God of the Bible. A man can think of “pink elephants” because “pink” and “elephant” are both visual stimuli.

      Evolving creatures are not interested in truth, they are only interested in adaptive behavior. If man evolved, how is he again free to think or to believe anything when his DNA, as Dawkins asserts, “runs the whole show”?!

      Like

  10. dimran
    March 29, 2015

    As for me, I embrace God, I grew up as a Christian and I will wilfully remain a believer of Jesus Christ. I haven’t lost any freedom, I haven’t lost logic I am contended. For the atheist walk your path.

    Like

    • wex
      June 23, 2015

      That’s the spirit we shouldn’t be condemning anyone for his/her choice of religion,its afree world,i chose no god coz the true values of success are working hard or rather smart,even the most religous person will not pray for riches,he’ll look for employment.

      Like

      • Dan Ole Moiko
        July 11, 2015

        wex, thats the most stupidest thing i ever heard, the Bible itself advocates for working, it does not say people should just laze around and expect riches, and about being smart, you might be as smart as the next persons stupidity.

        Like

  11. dimran
    March 29, 2015

    Omumia kalukha khumwami, Nyasaye aliwo

    Like

  12. Joseph Oruoch
    April 4, 2015

    The question of God is about definition and criteria. If the sun is your God then there is no dispute about God’s existence.

    Like

  13. Ihiga riumu
    April 4, 2015

    U are ua own god and ua own devil!believe in your self n all will b well.iam who i am.letS preach the gospel of i.remove harry frm u.iam with u always

    Like

  14. Thor
    April 5, 2015

    I was reading Alan Guth’s, Neil deGrasse Tyson’s and Brian Greene’s pro Big Bang cosmological inflational proposals. Inflation is supported also by astronomical data.

    Like

  15. Jackson
    April 8, 2015

    Us blinded by evil? Why do I find that ironic! You are the one who blindly believes in a God who commanded Joshua to exterminate the Caananites.
    You tell me, whos being blinded by evil?

    Like

    • Leonard
      August 11, 2015

      True that.

      Like

      • Harry
        August 11, 2015

        Leonard, text me on 0717 110066.

        Like

  16. antoy
    April 9, 2015

    Religion is nonsence

    Like

  17. Patrick Akaka
    April 13, 2015

    “Religion is opium to control the mass.”(Karl Max). It is a high when individual should be enlightened. We should forget foreign God of the books** ,bible,Qur’an, Mormon and many other so called scriptures that has confused our society. Just see how stupidity has befallen in so called prayer building. Please note God died long time in his books,you are GOD yourself you can do all magic, miracles, and other mistries using just your mind.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Ticia
      January 9, 2016

      Iko shida hapa

      Like

  18. Kwasi
    May 5, 2015

    The greatest power is the human. That’s where god came from.

    Like

  19. ng'ang'a kimani
    May 7, 2015

    hey

    Like

  20. fishing charters
    May 13, 2015

    Open Source Blog site – Open source at Google with news concerning Google’s open source projects as well as programs.

    Like

  21. sandblasting
    May 14, 2015

    OpenSocial API Blog – OpenSocial gives a set of APIs for
    social applications across a number of websites.

    Like

  22. ssw
    May 20, 2015

    When I read about atheists in Kenya, I was excited, that finally there is a place that is free of prejudice and intolerance, where I will objectively seek to find the truth, the meaning of life love happiness and pursuit of it all.Well, I was disappointed, I found the very things I was running away from, Prejudice and intolerance towards people who believe in whatever they have chosen to believe as if they have a lesser right to believe what they believe in without a care for the reasons why they believe in what they believe in. That much Anger and hate I cannot handle. If you claim atheism is a solution then lets see the opposite of what you are fighting. Meanwhile, I stay away from all this.

    Like

    • Leonard
      August 11, 2015

      It is all because the so-called religionists don’t bring constructive arguments here, in the first place what are they doing here? We don’t attend their churches or mosques.

      Like

  23. pat.
    June 5, 2015

    I am Deist i believe in the God of Einstein and Spinoza. A universal divinity not aspiring to condemn human beings to eternal fire. I agree organised religion is an encumbrance to human progression since people live in fear of revulsion of an omnipotent being. Equally, i find it obnoxious that religion always blames the devil or sin for bad deeds while taking credit for all the good deeds. This is despite the barbaric history of religion. In their infantile stages, Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) engaged in a callous evangelical pursuit that left behind unsubstantiated carnage and pillage. Today radical Islam and christian fundamentalism are responsible for global carnage and insecurity.
    Thirdly, i loath at organised religion for condemning irreligious people as cold blooded hell bound sinners irrespective of their positive contribution to humanity. For example Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are the largest philanthropists in world yet they are agnostic. Therefore, how sure are we that they may burn in hell (if it exists) because their souls are not saved. Finally, religion is subjective and not objective. if one is born in a christian family it is more probable that he will become a christian and will believe in a christian God as the only true God. However, if he was born in a Muslim family then he would follow the teachings of Mohamed and Allah. Therefore, this logical inconsistency affirms my thesis that religion is beyond the purview of human mind.

    Like

  24. Skitah
    June 15, 2015

    Help me, I recently became atheist but I am facing all sorts of “things”. I want to know my rights as an atheist and what I am entitled not to do!

    Like

  25. wex
    June 23, 2015

    Been an atheist for so long,rules governing religion are not practical at all in the 21st century,live free,live right.

    Like

  26. Saul Paul
    June 24, 2015

    Hehehehe, how can you oppose what doesn’t exist.why are you bothered by an entity that doesn’t exist?

    Like

  27. optics
    June 30, 2015

    Atheism is a form of religion , a disbelieve in God.
    Atheism may hinder free thinking.
    So be keen on what you believe in.

    Like

    • MK
      November 29, 2015

      Atheism is not a rejection of god/ gods or a denial of god/gods; it is a lack of belief in god/ gods. ( how can one reject or deny that; that dosent exist?)
      The only common thread that ties all atheists together is a lack of belief in god gods and supernatural beings.
      Aethism is not a religion. to qualify it as a religion it has to:-
      have a belief in supernatural beings (god/gods).
      Ritual acts focused on sacred objects.
      A moral code believed to be sanctioned by the god/gods.
      forms of communication with god/ gods.( prayer)
      A social group bound together by the above.
      ps this list is in no way exhaustive

      Atheism is a lack of belief, not a philosophy. ( non-toothfairism… lol)My disbelief in the Tooth Fairy cannot be a philosophy of life.

      Like

  28. Denis
    July 5, 2015

    hey guys? i have heard of FIKA and would like to be a memver,can someone guide me? I will appreciate

    Like

  29. Denis
    July 5, 2015

    member not member. typo

    Like

  30. Kaddo
    July 9, 2015

    I think we created God, God did not create us. We created him as a refuge to run to when our minds stretches to its maximum limits of trying to unravel complexities of life. And fails. So we transfer responsibility to him and blame to his alter-ego, another creation of our mind, Satan, when things absolutely fail to work.
    Is this all there is? This struggle, with nothing for posterity? Nothing my grandfather did or said exists now, and your grandfather too, and all the grandfathers before them. Why do we do so much for so little to outlive our time here? I think it all boils down that it is all for nothing. Having realized that, the race of life is to be as comfortable as is passable amongst fellow species of kind and within means and reach. But what if that comfort level just is unattainable? Ama ask again, Is God/god real or a figment we create to absolve ourselves of responsibility for things out of our spectrum of control? Is he able to stop bad things or provide good things? Is he willing to? If he is able and willing, why does he allow evil to sprout and thrive? If he is neither willing nor able, why call him God/god anyway?

    Like

  31. kaddo
    July 11, 2015

    According to sociolgist Phil Zuckerman, countries with high concentration of religious people like, yes, Kenya and by extension the whole of Africa and south America, have more murder rates, rape, wars, intolerance, its people are more nationalistic, prejudiced, antisemitic, racist, dogmatic, ethnocentric, closed-minded, and authoritarian, as opposed to lets say, Scandinavian countries where almost 86% of population do not believe in any diety. And they are all in top 6 most developed countries in the world

    Like

  32. abuu
    July 12, 2015

    I am an Atheist. Thing is Religious Dogma is so strong to break free from it is quite liberating and relieving (considering its forced on you from childhood to adulthood).The very contradictions in religions(and they are many) just couldn’t live up to the high standards to deserve my ‘blind faith’. For instance why live 70 years and then burn eternaly just because you didn’t accept a christ who you can’t verify existed in a form he’s portrayed just because the bible says so…let alone the fact that there are countless ancient religious texts. It is no secret the nature of Religious goods is destructive and evil. How can God command killing of people? How can a loving sweep all humanity with floods?i wouldn’t exterminate my children for disobeying me -its simply beyond cruelty…and that is if you can really believe Noah and his family collected all the billions of flora and fauna species and packed them in a really big ark that they somehow managed to build.I prefer to believe in nothing but not a comic book.

    Like

  33. John Mburu
    July 13, 2015

    The most interesting thing about this god concept is that even the staunch believers cannot explain with clarity what they believe in,everything that is true and real must have a logical explanation.

    Like

  34. John Mburu
    July 13, 2015

    Sometimes I think the best use for these religious texts is as refference materials for history students studying ancient civilisations or the ancient roman cultures.

    Like

  35. carls
    July 31, 2015

    To oppose something it must exist forehand. Atheists think that there is no God because they are too dumb to comprehend His ways. you don’t need to read the holy Bible to know that He truly exists, just take a thoughtful walk. I am one person who has interest in science. So far so good I have made a discovery that my atheist brothers will disregard. God can prove science but science can’t prove Him. God understands all science but science doesn’t understand all the ways of God. Let me take you for a thoughtful ride ….in the beginning there was light, the light was with God and the light was God…. I hope you know that every creation in the universe and beyond is a product of light (speaking from scientific grounds). I hope you know that that verse was written before scientist were able to link light to life and other creations.

    Like

    • MK
      November 29, 2015

      interesting claims first if you practice the christian faith take the time to read the bible indepth genesis to revelation, try and reconcile the instructions to kill disorbidient children, stone to death fonicator., the instruction from God to carry out genocide of the amalakites. the damnation to hell for a thought crime… the list is so long it could fill a book; ohh wait it did! the BIBLE ! then read up on the history of the bible and its claimed authors. then read history as far back as the bronze age. what you will discover are the numerous examples of abrahamic plagiarisim from older cultures and pagan practices and religions. and as to the clain the bible is the the oldest book well that is wrong the rig veda predates it by atleast 1000 years. and in those ancient times you just look up akenaten of egypt and their sun deity amon the bringer of light- sun light and ra the god of air- air that breaths life into all living and akenaten united the two to form amonra and presto alakazam monotheism the god of light that gives breath… does that sound familiar? and omnipresence well air is everywhre and he is thus everywhere… as for the yet unexplainerble phenomena science and scientist are honest enought to acknowledge they havent figured it out and when they are wrong they acknowledge it. not having an explanation should not lead one to the the default position that god did it. many phenomina were attributed to the supernatural till science showed otherwise. one belief was disease was caused by evil spirits well that was till the germ theory. same case for epileptic fits versus signs of demon posession.
      but you know what you can look it all up for yourself trust nothing i have said you have a wealth of information. read mister read the information is their and available
      ohh and on everythig being light. that is in the realm of a philosophical thought/ view. and sicence has something to say about that. light is both a partical (photon) and a wave ( electomagnetic radiation) and neither are in contradiction of each other. but the claim that everything is light is falacious and this is why all matter is made up of atoms and atoms are made up of electrons and protons and they have mass but photons dont!

      Like

  36. gudda
    August 5, 2015

    I hate religious people you cannot reason with them always surrounding themselves with stupid dogmas and definitions.

    Like

    • kim
      September 5, 2015

      it is not necessary to hate anyone

      Like

      • gudda
        September 6, 2015

        Point well taken

        Like

    • Hakuna Mungu
      June 19, 2016

      They very superstitious and scared, choose not to reason/use logic because the fear of the truth is overwhelming to the christians. Being free from religion and god bondage, is the beginning of wisdom

      Like

  37. gudda
    August 5, 2015

    Religulous!

    Like

  38. Kristine
    August 12, 2015

    At Gerben Law Firm I provide just one trademark registration service due to the fact that I do not
    care about doing partial” searches.

    Like

  39. Rev Joseph Simiyu
    September 12, 2015

    SEND ME YOUR BOOKS OR BIBLE COURSE I WOULD LIKE TO LEARN MORE ABOUT YOUR MINISTRY

    Like

  40. chepkonga Solomon
    September 23, 2015

    at last am where i belong. am free in mind

    Like

    • Harry
      September 23, 2015

      Please register to become a member. Send KShs. 500 to 0720 549512 — Then we shall add you to our membershio, and WhatsApp group.

      Like

  41. bernard
    September 23, 2015

    One of satan’s biggest endeavors is to convince men that there is neither hell nor heaven. Make them believe that its all about science, until its too late. Science is good in that it makes our lives comfortable, however when it comes to the difficult questions it backs out. That tells me that there is something more and greater than science

    Like

    • Leonard
      September 24, 2015

      I would like for you to show me satan and how he convinces us to follow or think factually or scientifically. Also explain to me how, according to the bible, Noah collected all the species to the ark and what the carnivores were eating in the ark. Yaani story ya the ark is one of the most ridiculous stories in the bible.

      Like

      • bernard
        September 25, 2015

        I have never seen gravity but I have seen gravity at work. I therefore cannot show you gravity. I believe there is gravity through reading, through seeing, through hearing. Therefore it is by faith that I believe there is gravity, though I have never seen gravity. I believe there are powers and forces out there which we cannot see but they are busy at work. We get to see the results of their work.

        I have heard that the world at the bottom of the oceans is beautiful and expansive. I hear the same about the outer spaces of the universe. They say we men have only explored a very small fraction of these places. These places are far above our understanding. They are greater than our minds and our knowledge. They simply have not fitted into our understanding. Similarly, God has not fitted into our little understanding and into our minute minds. He is so great and big to fit in. But for they that believe and try to seek him, He gives some little knowledge about himself to them. That is why sometimes we completely refuse to believe or rubbish some of these things that we hear about Him. Why? because the way He operates, the things He does, they are far beyond our understanding.

        Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        January 12, 2016

        Leornard God did not say collect all species, did He? If collecting all species is unitelligent, I wonder how you suppose that thats what God said. Actually the dimensions of the ark was far much greater to accomodate all KINDS of animals from which all species develop. You dont need all species of dogs. Its simple science and I wonder how you missed it. Read it again, now objectively. The flood account is fascinating with details.

        Like

    • MK
      November 29, 2015

      and i quote your statement ” Therefore it is by faith that I believe there is gravity ”
      the presence or absence is not subject to our persepective it is an immutable fact acting on the real physical plane. it is a fact( look up the defination of fact) inline with the laws of physics. and the theory of gravity. and before you say its ‘just a “theory” ‘ (please look up the scientific defination of theory!). it requires no faith( please look up defination of faith!) fot gravity to exert influence on the physical world. conversely not beliving in gravity dosent negate it.
      as for the deep of the sea, well that would be the marianas trench and yes scientists have explored it found their are life forms even that deep.( please look it up)
      as for deep space science and scientists are still exploring and if the past is anything to go by in time their will be rational scientific explanations. just coz we cant explain it is no proof that god exists or make the asertion god did it! and if such extraordinary claims are made then extraordinary proof must be availed! if not the claims the can be dismissed without need to disprove them! why you may ask? Because the burden of proof is with the one making the claim. ps that is one of the tenets of jurisprudence.
      if you look at history a number of things attributed to god/gods have had sound science explain them eg the origin of the universe( big bang theory), the origin of life on earth( evolution and abiogenesis) , lightening, volcanic eruptions, the lunar and solar cycles, causes of diseases. It is an endless list of phenomena attributed to the supernatural. but dont trust my word you have acess to a wealth of information look it up for youself.

      Like

      • bernard
        December 6, 2015

        ” just coz we cant explain it is no proof that god exists or make the assertion god did it! ” I will quote you.
        If we cannot make the assertion that God did it, then definitely we should be able to point towards the direction of he who did it. Thousands of generations have tried to deny that God did it, but non has satisfactorily told men who did it then. There is only one book that gives an account on how it happened. The name of the book is the bible. Science cannot comprehend that book. Anything it says looks stupid to science. A deep interaction with that book opens a set of eyes deep within man that causes him to see beyond science and religion. It makes him aware at a personal level, that religion and science are/were made by his fellow men and that what matters most is not science or religion but a personal walk with Him who created everything. Him who cannot be defined by time. Because time is also science.

        Like

      • MK
        December 13, 2015

        well if you count the bible as the source of your knowledge of god be aware that it is the product of human authors. some books having multiple authors! and men are fallible. the bible contains over 400 contradictions and multiple errors. if the asertion it is the inspired word of god it ought not to! it should be clear concise and contain no errors and what i am reffering to is not the english translations but the original greek text which comprise a significant portion from which the modern bible is drawn form. please read up on bible history.
        anyway that aside as i had stated earlier sicence relies on facts. got
        no miracles, nope;
        no magic, nope;
        icidentally look up the defination of the two, they refer to the same thing!!

        please realise one thing i dont need to prove the non existence of an imaginary bieng. like i dont have to prove the non existence of santa clause! neither do i have to prove the non existence of god! you make the claim he exists the burden of proof is upon you making the claim that he exists; just like in court if the prosecution makes a claim it is upon them to provide evidence to substanciate that claim!

        the same goes for a claim of having a personal relationship with an imaginary friend! that you talk to?, that grants you personal favours?, that watches over you while you sleep?
        this is the product of social engineering and indoctrination it is mental programming that mimics a mental disorder (dellusions).
        please note before getting all worked up!!! i did not say it is a mental disorder, but it mimics one!
        and before you go ahead and tell me he is real because he answers prayers please look up confirmation bias… you can read that up
        and anyway if he did what of the prayers of starving dying babies in turukana, sudan, ethiopia, arent they important? thought human life is sacred according to him? or theirs dont cont?. either he dosent exist or he dont give a sh*t.
        and if you say either way it is his will; well you know that makes him a saddist!

        and that bible you revere please make the time to read it and i mean take a year to research and read in depth take your time annd be honest with yourself and try and reconcile what is in its pages with the romatic notions you think it contains of all the good stuff you presume it says read it come back after you have done so.

        Like

      • MK
        December 14, 2015

        and just a side note to one thing i must point out and i quote you
        ” generations have tried to deny that God did it, but non has satisfactorily told men who did it then. There is only one book that gives an account on how it happened.”
        well you are aware first that the creation story dates the earth to aprox 6,000 years old? you know that right?
        you are aware that their is scientific evidence that shows that that figure is wrong actually it is wrong in the order of several thousand times… consevertive concensus estimates the earth to be 4.5 billion years old and one of our acestors to be several million years old( 2.8 million years) please read up on lucy in ethiopia.
        and before you say we are not monkeys or decended from monkeys and all those other ridiculous counter arguements. be aware modern homosapiens, monkeys, gorillas, orangutans all have one common ancestor. so no we did not come from monkeys but from a common ancestor basically monkeys are our genetic cousins ( ohh and their is DNA to prove it) their is overwhelming evidence for evolution. read up on it their is plenty of information you can start here
        http://www.talkorigins.org/

        Like

  42. Humble Kinya
    September 23, 2015

    You are not an atheist, you just hate Christianity. All your articles are directing at hitting one faith.

    Like

  43. mwaura kibuku
    September 24, 2015

    would lyk to urgently join

    Like

    • Harry
      September 24, 2015

      Please send KShs 500 to 0720549512 then let me know. My number is 0717110066.

      Like

  44. Terence Munene
    September 25, 2015

    free at last….

    Like

  45. Mary Cheptoo
    September 28, 2015

    Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

    Like

    • Harry
      October 5, 2015

      Really Mary?

      Like

    • MK
      November 29, 2015

      some choice that is, from a god that claims to give us free will and demands our love, and meets out punishment for not picking his way?ohh but he does it and he loves us.. some free will that is ha! that is a Sadomasochistic relationship.

      That aside interesting book you cherry pick quotes from! please go and read the entire book of deutironomy.
      well since you quote on its authority be aware it condones;
      >a man marrying his rape victim
      >stoning to death of sturbon children
      >slavery
      >genocide
      and that by any standard is utterly immoral.

      dont belive me pick up your bible and read it least you claim i am making a mis representation!! read it for yourself…

      Liked by 1 person

  46. Jamamuktar1997@gmail.com
    November 6, 2015

    It is actually quite liberating to become an atheist, I was tired of people telling me what exists after life, as if they have died and were reborn again. I wish my home country Kenya great endeavors, I will return to you soon. I just need to finish up college in the United States.

    Liked by 1 person

  47. magdalene
    November 16, 2015

    May God forgive all atheists for they do not know what they say & think.I fear for them when that hour of death knocks at their door.That’s the time they will wish they had accepted God & His Spirit to guide them.Repent & go back to God.His grace is all you need.

    Like

    • MK
      December 14, 2015

      their in lies the core of the matter. the fear of death! you have since childhood been indoctrinated with the idea that you must do good because their will be eternal reprisal in hell! that is ludicrous to meet out eternal punishment for a finite crime! it is both unjust and immoral!
      and the arguement that religion (here christianity) is a source of morality is absurd and immoral. here is why read the bible… mhhhh try the book of deuteronomy. with all the murder, rape, stonning, ethnic cleansing etc..
      ohh and you may say but their is the new covenant with jesus be aware of his teaching one piece being the sermon on the mount which unfortunately is tainted by the silence over slavery, and the failure to condemn the atrocities in the old testerment but instead a tasit aproval when he says he comes to fulfill them ohh their is the denouncing of relatives and condemning to hell for all that he judges..

      in light of all that is wrong and immoral contained in the bible; to choose to belive for fear of reprisal is a cowardly act. akin to pascals wager!
      please look up pascals wager and whats inherrently wrong with it!!

      Like

  48. Jkunda
    November 24, 2015

    I wonder where this fits in the mind of the “theists”

    Like

  49. Genys
    November 25, 2015

    Religion has been the cause of war’s and death to millions of innocent people over the years, I fail to associate God with such people or actions which deprive the very innocent the very chance to this so wonderful gift of life. Science will always stand against the test of time and that is what i choose to believe in, open minded people have led to this advancements we enjoy so far, of which if it were all left for the religion, we would still be in caves. I respect all religions but choose to believe in science knowing that, what cant be explained today, will have an explanation in the future, just like the way it was proven by science that the earth was round.

    Like

  50. theMentivist
    November 25, 2015

    I just want to clarify some terminology at this point, reiterated from an interesting interview with Ricky Gervais (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/ricky-gervais-highlights-worst-misconceptions-about-atheism-a6743491.html). An “Atheist” is someone who “does not believe in the CLAIM that there IS a God(s)”. And “Agnostic” is someone who “does not know whether there IS or is NOT a God(s)”. These are two very distinct statements. In actuality, EVERYONE is agnostic in the sense that we can not know or prove (scientifically speaking) for sure that there exists a God(s). Some people choose to BELIEVE there is a God without any evidence anyway (theists). Others choose not to (atheists). But even atheists cannot prove there is NO God. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. That aside, it is quite disconcerting that the angle of approach for AIK is one based on name calling and shaming of other people’s faiths (calling people primitive is not a solution to the “Existence of God or lack thereof” debate). I was hoping that AIK would encourage open dialogue between people of faith and those without. There seems to be a very spiteful, subjective narrative in the description at the beginning of this website. Let’s not turn atheism into a religion, it would defeat the purpose. ~ a humble agnostic.

    Like

    • MK
      November 29, 2015

      asking an aethist to prove their is no God is the equivalent of me asking you to prove their is no santa claus. logical fallacy is asking for proof of the non existence of a fictional character

      Like

  51. LUYUNDI ANYANDA
    December 11, 2015

    Basic Tenet of Religion is FAITH….. The lack of renders one impotent in understanding of it

    Like

    • MK
      December 13, 2015

      please look up the defination of faith. i am required to suspend all logic and reason? well thats the only way to believe absurdities!!!
      to paraphrase voltaire when people believe absurdities they are willing to commit atrocities! and to illustrate the point look at the rwandan genocide. please read up on that….. religion makes men do inhuman things!

      Like

      • J Neb
        December 23, 2015

        I have a good knowledge of religious backgrounds. I am now a Christian by association rather than conviction. I go to church to keep in touch with people, purely for socialization, it’s the easiest way to have true relationship with people in my neighborhood. However, conscience is to human, guilt wears me down. That I am not a believer, like everyone call everyone. To be honest I need reasons to believe in God of the Bible and the ones available just aren’t convincing to me.

        I almost went to the church minister and asked for permission to be a member, be known for disbelief and respected, and to be given time for personal revelation. But guess what, the minister will tell me to get born again or risk rotting in hell. She’ll open the Bible and call me a fool for saying God does not exist, then how God loves me that Jesus came bla bla. Then the church will constitute a special task for serious prayer, fasting and exorcising. Then I’ll be forced to acknowledge the effort and say I believe and start a serious personal alienation. Or rather, the minister might just call me a devil worshiper and ban me from the church compound. When labeled a devil worshiper, Christian will themselves plan your suffering in the name of spiritual security in Gods name. If you doubt this look at the arrogance with which any Christian treats a non believer with.

        I am not an atheist, I’d better respond to agnostic. By the way, Jesus himself to me with the extra biblical understand of him, he was agnostic to some extent and had a transformative mission, that was cut short by his crucification, did he resurrect? No. But the Romans, lead by st paul changed his mission crowned him God and started Christianity. The Jews, founders of biblical stories, don’t consider him God, quite absurd that Christian do. This is not in the bible so Christian are in darkness on this and much more.

        The other thing that holds me in Christianity is the moral code inculcated in people from childhood. To me Christianity, as well other moral shaping religion should not be abolished. It is ‘fanatism that should be discouraged. Religion should be maintained as a moral mold for children and later as a social bond for grownups . This requires a lot of understanding. The society must be taught to love knowledge and uphold socialism. Most of what we call evil, or work of the devil, is rooted at individualism and am willing to show why.

        Like

      • MK
        December 23, 2015

        J Neb the main issue is not the community members of which ever faith or doctrine ( be they christians hindus muslims or sikh) no we are all human and are social animals and wish that association and bonding! but like you alluded to and i must acknowledge these groupings have done good social works and acts of charit and for the most part have a positive impact. but unfortunately the problem lies with the doctrine and actions of those that lead those organisations. it must be acknowledged for example the catholic church has built schools educated and sheltered orphans; but that is tainted not just by priests molesting the juveniles under their care but the vatican invoking canon law to not only hinder investigations but to add insult to injury reinstating priests who were implicated and dismissed! or on the one hand so benovelently building hospitals and on the other hand their ban on comdom use in africa a continent ravaged by HIV/AIDS!
        or the ban on contraception which robs women of control of their reproductive health! having more children than they can cloth feed and educate! which when looked at critically is the way to empower africa is to empower the women who are the backbone of our society.
        but like you pointed out you are a christian by association and i am in no way implying your catholic no; that just served as an example.. but to belong to a group, who if they knew what you ascribe to would promptly ostracize you needs to be called out as a need for conformity, akin to being in a gang! and yes those groupings and criminal gangs have way too many similarities..
        a bunch of rules
        central kingpin who runs the show
        lieutenants who carry out the bosses orders
        special rituals and rites
        a specific dress code
        special meeting locations
        paying tirbute/ passing a cut of what you earn to the boss
        that is the truth, it maynot be rational but it is the truth.

        you may just as well join a golfclub/ darts club or the rotary club or the lions club if human/ social interaction is what you seek!!

        Like

  52. J Neb
    December 17, 2015

    For me God, as Christianity has taught me from my childhood, in character is just, unbiased, compassionate, peaceful etc. In knowledge, he is complete, infinite and timeless. He is omnipresent and invisible the story goes.
    I expected to find these in the Bible now that is that bases of this teaching. I saw a lot of weakness.
    Right from the creation accounts,
    we see a God who didn’t know in advance that Adam would need a woman.
    Even having created the two idiots (not knowing right and wrong) he gave them instruction and expected they would follow and proceed to punish them when the failed, how uncanny. It’s embarrassing He could not predict this.
    Ooh, so they were deceived by the devil? that’s another failure by God, I think (sorry for thinking with God given mind). He haf cast the devil from heaven to earth. He had power to create a dungeon for the devil to wait for judgement, rather he cast them to the same Garden of Aden he had poor innocent man & woman and he could not foresee the deceit.
    Go on with the stories.
    If religion fails in logic, you can chose to stop thinking and follow it or be in serious chaos of leaving without it, a false Dilemma. I am not an atheist but the Bible fails me spiritually.

    Like

    • MK
      December 22, 2015

      it is good you have looked into abrahamic religions especially christianity; and i must commend you on the open mindedness and not just accepting its premise blindly! many of us have gone through similar motions, but sorry i got to burst that last notion. your rejection of the christian cardinal teaching of the death and ressurection of christ as attonement for our original sin from adam; that, that makes you an atheist. we have been made to belive it is wrong or it is taboo but it aint just somebody stating their lack of belief. as far as and in this instance christianity. being an atheist dosent make you less human or less moral; because we still have societal norms, our conscience and the laws of the land!
      the greatest missinformation propergated by a number of theists is only religion can be the source of morality (which ironicaly is wrong and over history quite the contrary). their is a tenndency to potray atheists as moraless vagabonds for their rejection of a given faith. as christopher hitchens challenged show any action a theist can do that an atheist is incapable of…. and their are none!
      society is better off without religion, too many atrocities over the centuries commited in gods name or on his behalf. but i do commend you and please do more research into other religions, their dogma and their histories and have a broader view on this matter i promise you it will be a rewarding and eye opening experience!

      Like

  53. Amos Aganda
    December 23, 2015

    thank you very much , it is a powerful comment to those so called etheist. Let them know that God is the only creater of this earth, because without God the earth and every thing in it would never existed. May God bless you more and more.

    Like

    • MK
      December 26, 2015

      Amos i ask which god, you know their are many… as many as the countless religions that do exist and have existed.
      and i am sure you will start with the presupposition that the one you believe in exists.
      then proceed to make the assertion your holy book is the Word of God because God tells us it is… in the holy book. and that’s the proof!
      that is circular reasoning./ a circular argument.

      never mind the fact he creates something out of nothing by speaking it into existence which is in contradiction of the first law of thermodynamics(please look it up) basically you cant get something out of nothing. premise fails!!!

      Like

      • bernard
        January 5, 2016

        And what makes you think that He who created everything that exists; including you, would subject himself to the law of thermodynamics?

        Like

      • MK
        January 7, 2016

        bernard please first make a clarification who or what is this entity you claim created everything…. including me

        Like

  54. John
    December 25, 2015

    Atheists u r wrong folow de lord nd b suprised

    Like

    • MK
      December 27, 2015

      which lord?, lord Shiva?, lord Vishnu?, lord Krishna?, lord Buddha?

      Like

  55. Leonard
    December 25, 2015

    How do you get surprised by following the lord? My best and most fruitful days in this world are when and after I realised religion is the biggest SCAM ever.

    Like

  56. Isaac Makumba
    January 4, 2016

    Obviously the existence of an
    interventionsist god, a designer of
    universes who is certainly not
    interested in human affairs is
    beyond dispute. But there has to
    be something, the source of
    everything with some divine intelligence underneath. Otherwise its
    compelling to conclude that the
    universe has no point which is
    somewhat irrational and
    controversial, I suppose. The universe is not here to make us happy thence what the true reason of being other than the here and now?

    Like

  57. Isaac Makumba
    January 4, 2016

    Obviously the existence of an
    interventionsist god, a designer of
    universes who is certainly not
    interested in human affairs is
    beyond dispute. But there has to
    be something, the source of
    everything with some divine intelligence underneath it all. Otherwise its
    compelling to conclude that the
    universe has no point which is
    somewhat irrational and
    controversial, I suppose. The universe is not here to make us happy thence what the true reason of being other than the here and now?

    Like

    • MK
      January 4, 2016

      There is absolutely no reason for the universe to exist, as reason requires cognition.
      nor does there need to be a reason for its existence in order for it to exist.
      your need their to be some deeper reason for your existence because you’re terrified that this life is all you get and that you aren’t cosmically significant.
      you seek menaing/ value for your existence; its all what you make it to be..

      Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        January 9, 2016

        So why is there something rather than nothing MK?

        Like

      • MK
        January 11, 2016

        like i pointed out it doesn’t require a reason. it is like asking why is water wet. to ask the question why as opposed to how… why construes purpose, their is no purpose only we give it purpose / meaning

        Like

  58. J Neb
    January 5, 2016

    Isaac, the universe will continue to exist if after the three rhinos remaining finally dies without offsprings, God forbid. The universe, likewise, would continue to exist should humans as well get extinct. A human is no more important to the universe than a rhinos or a rock. Animals have varying degree of intellectual ability base on brain adaptation. We think we are made in the image of God but have we explained how much gorillas, being so alike to humans, varies from the God likeness. The moment we realise this the more we will better understand our spiritual needs that believe in a deity. Whoever made it, if it was made, made so much that believing humans are the sole purpose of it is so ridiculous!

    Like

  59. VICTOR SHIKUKU
    January 9, 2016

    That the human brain and mind is reduced to a result of random unguided mindless purposeless processes arranging and disarranging molecules is inherently contradicting the fact that such a mind should be trusted to make any decision let alone a consensus in any subject!

    Like

    • MK
      January 11, 2016

      it ain’t random ( not as your presupposition wishes to assert) it is under the direction of a set of instructions called DNA. that is how the human body works. from your brain to your pinkie toe. this is true for all flora and fauna. and before you say DNA is too complex to have spontaneously come about; it has evolved over billions of years from simple to complex. please look up abiogenesis; how molecule chains form amino acids and from amino acids to RNA the precursor and building blocks of DNA. the premise behind science is the scientific method. where a hypothesis is tested and the results are evaluated; the experiments can be repeated many times with similar / concurring results

      Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        January 11, 2016

        Abiogenesis is faith not empirical since, it violates the observable repeatable law of biogenesis, it violates the laws of thermodynamics, it simple needs a special environment where natural laws dont work, namely, its an atheistic version of miracles. Just the words I LOVE YOU written on beach sand requires inference to intelligence, yet the DNA that you refer to has 3.4billion letters in the right sequence with right information and you refer to chance. While kissing the frog does not chance the frog to prince, in atheistic view proposed here, you only need to kiss the frog long enough and frequently and one of thode kisses will turn the frog to prince. Time is the miracle worker!

        Like

      • MK
        January 11, 2016

        please look up definition of abiogenesis and biogenesis.. and look up definition empirical science then look up definition of faith. now how does a scientific process require blind belief? scientific process… hypothesis, experiment observation, inference. now rinse and repeat however any number of times till you are satisfied. you either prove or disprove the hypothesis.
        abiogenesis from chemical elements to more complex molecules then eventually amino acid chains …
        biogenesis from pre existing cells… where did these cells come from?
        no special environment just conditions as they were likely to have been 4.5 billion years ago..

        and please tell me which law of thermodynamics have been violated 1st, 2nd or 3rd?
        and no need for miracles because all that is put forward in abiogenesis has been tested in the lab over and over and been peer reviewed before being published their is consensus on it in the scientific community.
        as for DNA the human genome count is less than that of amoeba in the order of 200 times!
        and to make the assertion of DNA sequencing is inference to intelligent design you should be aware first the process is not perfect and contains errors. some are transposed, others reversed and others deleted, it is not perfect! neither is it a perfect process!!. second only about 8% of it is useful the rest is “junk” and i use the tern junk loosely.
        third that humans share 50% DNA with bananas, 85% with zebra fish… their are numerous examples look them up actually humans are related by DNA to all living matter! alluding to a common ancestry!
        the thing that has been proven over and over and their is over 98% consensus is evolution is a fact! i repeat a FACT! if you have evidence to the contrary you wouldn’t be debating me you would be in Stockholm receiving a Nobel science prize!

        ohhhh and no kissing frogs necessary

        Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        January 11, 2016

        A scientific theory will only require blind faith if it violates reason, natural laws of science and is mathematically untanable. As such you invoke I BELIEVE EVEN THOUGH!! In fact evolution strictly speaking doesnot even qualify as scientific hypothesis because it is not testble. You cant test a process that takes billions of years. An experiment of such a kind doesnot exist.

        Secondly, abiogenesis has NEVER been observed otherwise if you have its experimental evidence then the Nobel prize is up for grab. Life does not rise from non-living and there is no successful experiment (NOT EVEN ONE) that generate life from non-living matter-abiogenesis in the lab. On the contrary there is the observable, testable law of biogenesis, life comes from life. In short you BELIEVE BY FAITH that inorganic and organic molecules somehow started breathing.

        The proposed change from simple to complex over time violates the second law of thermodynamics. It doesnt have happen today and thus it couldnt have happened a billion years ago unless the 2nd law of thermodynamics is supspended.

        Thirdly, simply publication of a proposed hypothesis in peer review journal is not evidence of any concensus, unless one is simply naive of how scientific publications work.

        Fourth, its foolish to suggest that an amoeba is simple or that difference in X number of genes in a banana and human is evidence for common ancestry. No scientist would take you serious. Lets just change 1% of your gene sequence and you would be useless, maybe worse than banana!

        Richard darwkins writing as a biologist notes that DNA is a computer-like system, yet Bill gates looking at this system and speaking as a computer scientist notes that it is the most sophisticated, infinitely superior to any computer program invented by man. How a simple computer program can develop by chance and random arrangement of codes is for the atheists to prove.

        Even die hard biology evolution scientists dont dogmatically claim evolution in its entirety as a package is fact. It lack of academic sincererity for anyone to claim such unless you have filled those gaps in evolution which as you say, you would be in Stockhom receiving the nobel for cementing evolution from hypothesis to fact.

        Like

      • MK
        January 11, 2016

        as for observerble evolution/speciation you can look that up the information is their yes in bacteria like ecoli which can be performed and observed in the lab. their other examples of lizards, Butterflies, moths.. look it up!

        you make the leap from amino acids chains to life in the lab. please make the clear differentiation!

        i will grant one concession if you define what life is or what qualifies as life!

        so please enlighten me on abiogenesis that thus far scientists have have or have not created chains of molecules and amino acids that are the building blocks of ribosomes have they or haven’t they?

        even setting aside abiogenesis one question you haven’t answered on biogenesis
        where did the first cell/ cells come from to begin replication?

        the second law of thermodynamics only applies to closed systems. life on planet earth is not a closed system because it receives energy from the sun..

        as to the process on publishing scientific findings on the scientific method please “educate me” especially on the peer review process. or how wrong and pedestrian my view on the process is.. and with my “pedestrian” description/ view that doesn’t change the process or negate its findings your objection is mute..

        so if not of common ancestry how or why do we have 50% DNA in common with bananas? or humans are half banana? of if you join 2 bananas you get a human? see that sounds just darn straight retarded!! so is your objection!!!
        unless you can provide a credible explanation your objection is mute!

        as for Richard Dawkins who is an evolutionary biologist has shaky grounds to be quoted on genetics. he is not a geneticist. a brilliant man he is but like i has no grounds or authority save for; and like me to quote a a geneticist. neither is bill gates they at best can make ‘pedestrian” observations and no one should quote on their authority for they have none on the matter of the mechanism and operation of genetics.

        please look up the scientific definition of theory
        And the holes you claim render the theory of evolution mute and negates it please show them. prove evolution theory is wrong and you can be off to Stockholm.
        as a side note science over the past 150 years has been providing evidence to fill your so called “gaps”

        Like

  60. VICTOR SHIKUKU
    January 11, 2016

    MK: you amaze me how you say there is ABSOLUTELY no reason for the universe to exist. Seems you believe in absolute truths. Also, wishing the question away because you cant seem to find a reason for the existence of the universe is fallacious and somewhat lazy. You also say the brain is under the control of DNA, but thats just a step backward, the DNA is also product of chance and random mutations, therefore taking the reductionists view to logical conclusion, the brains and minds of all individuals are simply unguided molecules and I wonder why we should even trust what comes from your mind. This problem puzzled Darwin himself, and he wondered why what he proposed should be trusted in the first place, if ever a monkeys brain could be trusted. And you have to come to terms with this problem because you have committed yourself to reductionism. Wishing questions away dont strengthen your worldview, not the least.

    Like

    • sam
      January 26, 2016

      one of the best things about science is that its falsifiable .. it is willing to change when new evidence is put into play. but religion isnt . your God cant be questioned all He she It says is true .. i find this rather disturbing . for so long its been proven that genesis is wrong in all accounts . a simple telescope can disprove ua God. no firmament no water above the earth no foundations to root the earth. we now know that the universe is not as finely tuned as we thought. we know God isnt responsible for earthquakes . that no flood occured . that the sun sets because the earth rotates not God making it.

      i find it funny when people try to bend science to fit into their religions with all their fancy terms like abiogenesis n thermodynamics and yet have no clue what it entails in its entirety . no wonder science wins all the tyms . the new breed of christian apologists like sye ten eric hovind etc with their pressupositional arguements are just making clowns of themselves by thinking that they have an iron clad arguement for God but when asked about wat it actually says in the bible they say they dont discuss scripture with non believers . yet peter tells em they should be ready to defend their faith .

      look at the situation around us . we were colonized brainwashed with ths white God and we adopted it fully without question . we took parts of the bible that we thot were good left out the others n said that they dont apply. shock on us . a verse from jesus lips rarely gets taught.. ” now bring those of you who refused me to be king over them and slay them before me.” say i have taken it out of context and he wasnt reffering to actual killing or it was in relation to a parable.

      the mental gymnastics of religion are just amazing and thats y i can comfortably say . yahweh just like zeus poseidon ngai nyasaye etc was a god created by people who were trying better to understand the world around em. we have known way better since them and why we hold on to iron age beliefs just amazes me .

      Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        January 26, 2016

        Sam, your thoughts at least as you have portrayed them on your last posting don’t require a response (at least from me as a person), with all due respect of course, not to trivialize you in any way (I find them more of street talk than pen on paper comments). but just for the record, religion is falsifiable. Thats why you cant belong to all at the same time or imagine all are the same unless you are a pluralist, post mordern, new ager and like brands. Religion is falsifiable. But if you have a question that you need clarity be free to ask, as you have noted Peter implores us to do, and with meekness I will respond with an answer or no answer if I dont know.

        Like

  61. MK
    January 11, 2016

    what troubles you about MY finding ABSOLUTELY no reason for the universe to exist. if you have an alternative and PLAUSIBLE / PROBABLE one please offer it up!!
    otherwise we will wind up in a pointless philosophical cul-de-sac.

    ps on a side note that shouldn’t lead you to the presumption of my belief in absolute truths on all matters because that is what you infer.

    like i have pointed out in earlier posts(on this page) why trust a single word i say you can look up the information yourself.

    and yes DNA is the product mutation and evolution.
    arguing with me wont change the scientific facts!
    and the scientific method.
    and yes science has come a long way since the days of Darwin. and oddly enough all what science has discovered confirmed Darwin’s theory.
    furthermore merely contemplating it doesn’t disprove it.

    the problem you have is wrapping your mind around the fact that one spices of evolved ape on a small rock in the vastness of the universe is insignificant and he like his predecessors will come and go.

    at the molecular level we are just a bunch of electro-chemical reactions. they fail and we go back to the constituent elements our bodies are made of. that is fact.

    Like

  62. VICTOR SHIKUKU
    January 11, 2016

    The question of purpose in an objective sense is significant if at least the DNA itself has iformation intended for a purpose. However, the question of why we exist is not a scientific question and here science is helpless.

    If the universe (matter, space, energy, time) has a beginning, and it does, then it has a cause and therefore the purpose of the universe is found in determining the characteristics of the cause. The cause must be greater than the effect, the cause must be outside space and time, thus omnipresent and eternal. It must have a will, to decide to cause a finite universe and not an eternal one, thus the cause of the universe is a transcendent person. A person is not measured by science, a person reveals himself. Ofcourse I can examine you with the most sophisticated instruments, but unless you speak and reveal yourself, I can not know you because you are a person.

    The purpose of the simplest computer program lies in the causative agent of the computer-the engineer. The purpose of us being here is in knowing the will of Him who made us. Such a transcendent timeless person, greater than the universe itself, is what philosophically is called God. And as a person He has not remained in silece, but has also revealed himself.

    Like

    • MK
      January 11, 2016

      you have gone a round about way to make the assertion that the universe has a creator that exists outside space and time… what is this that exists outside space time?
      well science can not prove or disprove it!.
      neither can you prove it or i disprove it!
      the position of an atheist (me) is their is no proof a god/ god(s) does or doesn’t exist and hold that the notion of a god/ gods exist only if it can be demonstrated to exist an none thus far have been demonstrated to exist. ( but that is purely a philosophical reasoning)

      now the assertion complexity is indicative of design and thus the need for designer can be summed up in the watch makers argument. please read up on it…..
      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-a-schwartz/intelligent-design-watchmaker_b_1730878.html

      Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        January 11, 2016

        Then properly speaking you are not atheist but agnostic. Further you have not refuted that the cause of time must be timeless or the cause of matter must be immaterial. Also, something cannot pop into existence out of nothing, unless you state here that this metaphysical absurdity (that is worse than magic) is what you propose as plausible origin of universe.

        Secondly, apart from our human experience, there is a scientific method for determining a threshold for designed things and so when you say for example a website is designed its not speculation or simply because it looks designed but the claim itself meets a threshold for design! So the teleological argument still holds.

        Again, the properties of the cause of the universe are self evident from the effect caused. The question rather should be, if the effects point to an immaterial, timeless person as a causative agent called God, how do we know who this person is? Has the person revealed himself enough for us to know with certainty of his existence. And the answer is absolutely yes.

        If this person is outside time (because he caused time), then the person can see the future before it happens. The reason you and me cannot tell what will happen next week, or even tomorrow is because we are living inside time.

        Remember the FORMER THINGS of old: for I am GOD, and there is NONE ELSE; I am God, and there is NONE LIKE ME, Declaring the END FROM THE BEGINNING, and from ancient times the things that are NOT YET DONE, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (Isaiah 46:8-9)

        Now, we have a case here. Either the statement above is true or false and no in between! It can be tested by looking at the former things (history). Thats why this goes beyong just natural science.

        If there are declarations that the God of the bible made, long before those things happened (even centuries), and then secular history affirms that they happened as described even with terrible exactness, then we can know that the personal agent outside time that caused the universe is the God of the bible and we can therefore derive the purpose of our existence.

        If He fails the test, then objectively speaking, we should look elsewhere for the answer!

        Whether you are familiar with this kind of studies I dont know but I would be interested to know. For as you say, we follow where the evidence leads, irrespective of preconceived ideas.

        Like

      • MK
        January 11, 2016

        agnostic refers to one without knowledge (of god).

        atheist refers to one who does not believe in god/gods.
        and god by your definition and reference to the one in the bible; he does not exist! HE DOESN’T EXIST!
        he is a creation of man from plagiarisation of earlier religions and myths! please read up on ancient history and the similarities in the christian god from religions that predate Christianity!
        That therefore rendering assertions from the bible on his existence mute!

        Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        January 11, 2016

        You are self contradicting. You claim God does not exist yet again claim God can not be proved or disproved! You said, quote “the position of an atheist (me) is their is no proof a god/ god(s) does or doesn’t exist“

        Your claim on the God of the bible is far from reality otherwise the history, religious and theology departments still existing even in world class universities would have been long shut down. We need to take the pain to study unless we fear to let go some cherished concepts. Truth suffers nothing by investigation and age does not change error to truth.

        I can simply say from your last comments, at least from an academic point of view, and objectively too, its a poor argument. Who would object that Judaism for example pre-existed Christianity, and there are similarities and differences. Similarities and differences are not proof for or against either positions! And if you see this as muting the bible then large number of leading religious scientists, theologians, philosophers, historians should tell you otherwise. Even secular historians of the extreme critics wing concede to the resurrection of Christ from the dead (for example). They concede based on evidence not because of the implication of conceding.

        The idea of the bible being a plagiarized myth book is not only a very loose statement in the highest sense but also falls far below an academic statement. I think the atheism you represent should rise above this argument.

        Like

      • MK
        January 11, 2016

        further the argument that their is something outside space time is not subject to the scientific process. and by the same reasoning cannot have influence over that that is subject to the scientific process. violates laws of physics! and if it does you claim special pleading and say magic/ miracle. and your god is the one who poofs something out of nothing by speaking things into existence violation of the first law of thermodynamics. you can not have it both ways he being not subject to the laws of physics yet meddling in the physical world!

        Like

      • MK
        January 11, 2016

        please dont miss represent me and below the statement you quote i wrote it is purely a philosophical indulgence. from your absurd claim that could exist anything outside space time.

        as for the many departments at prestigious universities in support of this myth, that is an argument to popularity. well you do know that for a long time popular belief held the world was flat too; the church being the main proponent of this.

        as for the resurrection of jesus christ first i see no need for a human sacrifice.
        now when jesus was resurrected the curtain in the temple was rent in half and the dead saints arose from the graves and walked in Jerusalem… its in mathew now among widely secular quoted historians( josephus and tacitus) at the time who are quoted to corroborate the existence of jesus his crucifixion and resurrection how could both have missed to mention the dead saints walking in Jerusalem?
        or were dead men walking a common occurrence?

        as for similarities please look up Mithra who predates jesus and commonalities between the two

        Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        January 12, 2016

        It is both scientifically and philosophically coherent that a cause does not reside inside the effect! The burden of proof is on your side to show that the cause of space and time actually resides within space and time, without circular reasoning or contradiction!

        I stand on the platform that the cause is outside and you claim this is absurd. Show the contrary, that the cause is inside, I will be glad to hear how that sounds.

        I am not appealing to popularity, instead am saying there is a reason why these departments still exist. Because there is real scholarship worth doing. You dont have to believe in Jesus, you only need to accept that he is a historical person who walked this planet and his death and resurrection are historical. What His death means is another thing, but that he died is fact. Unless you also, like I alluded earlier, believes in science only and dont take history seriously or reads history selectively.

        Even the vocal Richard dawkins admits Jesus´existence. Its simply a historical fact. An to attempt to reject it here is inexcusble to say the least.

        Like

      • MK
        January 12, 2016

        as for space time you have made the presupposition that their exists an entity outside space time controlling things. you made the error in assumption and now wish to force down upon me that i made the claim that the cause of space time is within space time. i have made no such assertion and yet to comment on that!
        the only thing i have alluded to is the big bang and even that is just in commentary

        the contention is not weather a man named jesus existed in Jerusalem, that is not the issue the issue is all the things attributed to him. their must have been many man named jesus it was a fairly common name for the region. the same goes for otieno who lived by lake Victoria 100 years ago and he was an amazing fisherman who did blah blah blah magic tricks and miracles… of course their is a historical otieno but whats in doubt are the feats attributed to him!

        Like

  63. VICTOR SHIKUKU
    January 11, 2016

    It seems you cearly dont understand the implication 1st law of thermodynamics! Matter and energy are not self existent or self-creating, and since their existence (whether by special creation or big bang) they cant be destroyed or added. This is the 1st law of thermodynamics. Creation affirms the first law of thermodynamics!

    No physicist ever argues that creationists violates the 1st law of thermodynamics. I have heard this with you, and it points you dont understand the implications thermodynamics to some degree and its understandable. However, the unfortunate part is your misunderstanding is shaping your conclusions!

    The fact that something is outside science process is not irrational, because science IS NOT ALL THAT THERE IS, or only source of knowledge! There is music, art, history, philosophy, theology, business, psychology, sociology and so on. Unless if all you need is science and all other faculties and sources of knowledge are useless.

    Secondly, you havent shown that the cause of time is within time; which is self contradiction! If the universe began at a finite time ago, whether 14billion or 600years, the cause thereof is timeless!! And the fact that its outside time makes it outside reach of natural science.

    At least, God exists to cause something to come to existence; And in magic, at least the magician exists too to cause the said magic; how about the something coming out of nothing caused by nothing? This is rational?

    Like

    • MK
      January 12, 2016

      first you speak of the big bang and so called “special creation” as if they are the same thing or a substitute for each other.
      first law of thermodynamics energy can not be created nor destroyed only change from one form to another how does this apply to speaking things into existence that sounds plausible/ probable creating matter out of nothing? or you you will proceed to argue it is not meant literally?

      you make the assertion that their is an unseen hand outside space time yet offer up no evidence.. no evidence to back up the claim; the claim can be dismissed without need to disprove it..

      as for the beginning of time being the big bang you will doubtless say then what was before that? well the beauty about science and scientists are honest enough to admit they don’t know and are still working on that! they dont offer up magic as an explanation is that rational?. look up definition of magic

      Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        January 12, 2016

        Special creation and big bang are not synonyms and nobody applies them as such. I still claim you dont understand the implications of the firt law of thermodynamics though you can state it. This law does not mean in any way that energy is eternal or self-existent, on the contrary this law affirms that energy since it came into existence it cannot be created nor destroyed. Its magnitude is the same through time in all forms.

        It seems you think by stating “energy cannot be created” it means energy is self-existent not requiring a cause! The exact opposite is meant. Any knowledgeable scientist on the subject will agree. What big bang does is try to account for the cause of this energy to come to existence!

        Creation is literal, bringing into existence. And its much plausible than energy poping into existence from nothing caused by nothing!

        Again because you cannot see where the evidence is leading you further fall in the ditch of thinking “absence of evidence is evidence for absence”!

        Sincerity does not just include stating that there are things we don’t know but willing to go where evidence and reason leads! Even creationist scientists admit there are many things they don’t know. And they don’t use God to fill knowledge gaps either! Isaac Newton for example did not say “Now I know gravity I don’t need God” instead He acknowledged God the more (for the known and unknown), yet many things were still unknown to him as they are to us.

        In short, if your concept of God is a god who explains the things you cant explain (god of the gaps), then it is obvious that the more you can explain them the less you need that god.

        Of course I have claimed that cause of the universe is a personal agent, outside space and time and immaterial based on the nature of the effects. You have not shown this is incoherent, irrational and unscientific. What you need to show is that these effects don’t need such causes and on the contrary the cause of time and space is actually inside time and space! I would like to hear about.

        Like

      • MK
        January 12, 2016

        please read up on the big bang theory.
        in short space energy time matter originate from a singularity.
        what caused the singularity? science and scientists still don’t have that one figured out yet!
        and yes their are competing hypothesis on the origins of the universe..
        as for your quip on the absence of evidence…… the default position is a null set unless shown otherwise.

        to cut a long story short
        you make the claim a supernatural entity exists; you who makes the claim must furnish the proof otherwise the claim is dismissed without need to disprove it.

        even from a logical perspective;
        as is with a court when the prosecution makes an assertion (charge) it is up to them to provide evidence to support that (charge) otherwise the charge is dismissed.

        Like

  64. J Neb
    January 12, 2016

    MK please allow me to respond to Shikuku and in point form now that he knows a little science;
    √ “The law does not claim” means your claim is right? isn’t that a fallacy?
    √ Big bang is a scientific theory and it has observable evidence (read keenly).
    √ Big band is not a creator but rather a point in the ever dynamic universe(s).
    √ Energy was not created, as you erroneously claim, at the duration of bing bang but rather transformed from former forms in to the forms that lead to what is present (call it dynamic).
    √ It’s has been proven through scientific methods that energy remain the same in magnitude but only changes in forms.
    √ In scientific terms we can talk of a time span “infinity” which is usable mathematically.
    √ “Eternal” is a term span used by heaven/hell ‘gowers’.
    √ If energy needed a creater, the creater must have used energy and energy must have been used to bring the creater in to existence (your argument extended)
    √ “in the beginning there was light…(a form of energy)’ what says you on that?
    √ what is the concept of God if he inspired Bible/Quran, but in it, only complained and threatened people into obedience in a manner to suggest a psychological disorder.
    √ Why couldn’t he create a bomb for the Israelites to give them superiority over, Babylonians, Egyptians, filistians (is that the spelling?) etc and give them, his chosen people, power over enemies noting that he is ever knowing?

    Like

    • VICTOR SHIKUKU
      January 12, 2016

      Whether termed as singularity or a quantum vacuum energy the point is this energy is not eternal, and eternal is an english word not a religious term!! Infact for centuries scientists belived the universe to be eternal and not finite. Now that they agree it had a finite beginning (as the religious wing had long held), the word eternal now has become religious, absurd!

      Secondly MK am waiting for you to show me how the cause of space and time is itself within space and time; because you refute that causes are outside their effects! Demonstrate this scientifically or by philosophy how intelligent and coherent it is to look for the cause inside the effect! Am eargerly waiting, for my assertion on this point you claimed is absurd to the least.

      Third, I already admitted that a transcendent being outside space and time is by definition outside the realm of science for science is not all that there is or only path to knowledge! At least all levels of schools you attended (I suppose) had more than one department, to mean science is profitable, but is not the only knowldge there is. Therefore, to insist on a scientific demonstration of something outside space and time is to require out of science what science cannot do! Just like requiring a scientific demonstration of a multiverse. For the fact that the multiverses (if ever such things exist) would be outside our universe´s space-time its not measurable by science. It would require other fields of knowledge to know if it exists or just imagine it exists.

      Fourth, the big bang is far, as east is from west, from being an intelligable acceptable scientific explanation for origins. Its simply a tentative hypothesis because there is no other naturalistic explanation superior to it and the alternative to creation. To suppose that its acceptable in scientific community is to be ignorant of facts or simply willfully playing the deceiver to those who have little knowledge on the subject.

      Infinity is just an abstract mathematical concept. Any mathematician would agree. Infinity multiply by infinity is infinity, and infinity subract infinity is infinity still. So making an argument on the word infinity is futile.

      No one questions the magnitude of energy is constant and only changes form. This is the 1st law of thermodynamics! whether you are a big banger or agnostic or creationist.

      In the begiining the was no light (energy) !!! and God said, let there be light (Genesis 1:2). Cause and effect and ofcourse dont fail to notice the cause is not inside the effect!

      Am not a muslim, for good reasons. But because you ask about the God of the bible, I would be glad to show you that He not only exists, but as a person has revealed Himself. He is love too. Ofcourse I assume if you are married your wife did not marry you because you looked like a good macromolecule but because you revelaed your personality to her and she willfully entered a loving relationship with you, forgetting all other men, scientific? And you will be angry if not disappointed after all you have done for her to find her following other men too! scientific, right? God, revealing himself as the creator, center of all goodness and law giver wishes that we love him by choice. But, alas, just like some men and women cheat, we also likewise disappoint Him. Thats why its not far fetched that He should come down to dwell with man, to reveal himself. This is far than what science can fathom.

      God does not need a bomb, man does! And even man, sometime even with the power to make boms, dont use them either. I wish you will be interested in the big picture of the great controversy on the character of God, and then the isolated bible account will make sense and if you cannot undertand them as well, it is no crime, there is alot that great minds admit they dont know. Its great character to admit one does not understand than err out of misunderstanding.

      Like

      • MK
        January 12, 2016

        my non comment on the space time thing seems to be bugging you a lot….

        this is why i am not commenting on it, it is because it is a STRAW-MAN argument.
        and this is why it qualifies to be labeled as such and doesn’t warrant my response; YOU! and not I make the presupposition that claim the cause of space time is within space time i said no such thing therefore i need not defend a claim i did not make period!!

        as i had pointed out earlier on because science doesn’t yet have an answer is no grounds to assert god did it..

        As for the existence of an entity outside space time i have already offered my philosophical musings on the matter.
        philosophically can neither be proven or dis proven. and a probable or improbable god/gods of philosophy should remain in philosophy.
        if he does meddle in the physical world he must be proven in the physical world!

        as for my personal life i need not comment on it in a public forum, i see no need..

        as for the accusation my one sided crutch we can dabble in a bit of ancient history.

        as for the god of the bible; and let their be light thing please look up amon Egyptian sun god bringer of light and Ra the creator breather of life.. united into one monotheistic god amonra by Akhenaten around 1300bc. bible first books written around 600 bc… i wonder where they got the idea?? hummm Egypt and the middle east aint like a a gazillion Jillion miles apart and ideas/ stories/ religions/ philosophies do travel with merchants…

        read up on it

        and please take your own advice look at the bigger picture

        Like

      • J Neb
        January 13, 2016

        “Infact for centuries scientists believed the universe to be eternal and not finite” when talking about science avoid words like believe because “believing” has impeded scientific progress a lot in history. It is science and logic that gets people from the point of believing to the point of knowing.

        The big bang theory, if true, does not include species in its happening. The theory of species speaks of spontaneous protein clusters that eventually, again by chance, rose the first rudimentary organism(s), long after the big bang. Billions of years of changes at different exposure on those organisms (all living things) resulted to what is today: you, the mosquito, the flower and the bacteria you just breathed. There is a recent scientific discovery that you and an Ape have 98% similarity in your genetic makeup hence the similarity observable to you (how mush is an ape an image of God? 98%?)

        “Infinity is just an abstract math concept”. You look at mathematic with contempt yet the universe within our reach has obeyed laws from which mathematics concepts are derived.

        From the bible, God created day and night and He rested on the seventh day meaning he did not separate himself time-wise from what he created. In the beginning (beginning of what? lies) the earth was formless. Formless means absent? or disorganized in the space?

        ‘one day God was walking in the Garden of Aden, Gen 3:18’. This shows that God of the bible is within space. Jesus ascended to heaven pointing a heaven overhead Israel. ‘God opened the gates of heaven’ and it rained the Noah’s flood. What more do you want to know that He is within time and space.

        If space and time need creating, then your claim of God is true (Joke).?

        Outside space and time is not a place you can hide God because even you don’t know what that is.

        Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        January 13, 2016

        J Neb you are literally confused or simply you dont understand what am saying!

        Believing is an english term found even in scientifc journals today (unless you dont read) and not a religious word. If you think the word believing impedes science then I guess you are doing a different science unknown to everybody else.

        Secondly, when I say infinity is an abstract mathematical concept am making a scientific statement. Its absurd that you imagine the word absract to mean contempt. Seriously???!!!!

        Third, you amaze me that 98% similarity in genetic makeup is evidence for common descent. The fact that you are far much complex than an ape and you can study the ape while the ape cant study you should tell you that you and an ape are not in the same image. Its like saying a chemistry textbook and a homescience textbook have common source because they have the same alphabets. Goodness!!! The same alphabets make both textbooks, yet the information are two worlds apart.

        No one claims the big bag has species in it. It must come by chance. The point is, my worldview is perfectly consistent with science and philosophy to expect the cause of the universe to be outside the universe itself. This MK termed as absurd but his scientist counterparts find it logical to conceive the existence of a multiverse.

        Am amazed you ask in the beginning of what!!! Beginning is an expression for time. If I ask you between time and space which existed first and why?

        Genesis 1:1 perfectly answers the question of time, space, matter and energy in their proper chronology. I think you need scientific eye glasses too when reading the bible, then some questions wont escape your lips.

        Why would God not walk into the garden He has created? Because the garden is inside space that He has made? Seriously!!!!

        You affirm that I dont know by scientific method what is outside space time but claim that something exists there-intlligence, and I concede yes, its true. Now, can you use this same rule on the multiverse hypothesis?

        It seems you are either goal shiting or you are unfamiliar with what you believe and likewise ignorant of what you are refuting. Because of this limitation, you cannot self-critic your own assumptions.

        Like

      • Leonard
        February 29, 2016

        All this is not convincing. What is your god’s purpose in creating us? For us to always ‘adore’ him, ‘bless’ him? For what gains. If am all powerful I don’t need lesser creations to appease me now and then to dish out favours. For those who do not toe the line, hell of fire??? If that is the ultimate purpose, he has failed BIG. Am yet to ever get convinced. Look at his qualities and you will see man-like qualities, that is if he is there. Your argument is UNCONVISING AND DIVERGENT. Give me his purpose for us and our being. Also for the Ark’s story, you are yet to tell me how carnivorous animals survived on the ark, who used to clean up all the animals excrement etc. Elaborate.

        Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        March 1, 2016

        Its not my wish to be drawn back to this thread but Leonard kindly not that:

        1. Do ask how carnivores were fed in the ark clearly tell that you least understand the flood, and the Creation account. I propose that instead of waiting to be convinced, get down to read. After you study then you will agree you asked a wrong question.

        2. No one with a good understanding of the flood account asks about waste management. Again it shows that you are reflecting other peoples thoughts without first hand experience on the biblical account of the flood. The book “feasibility study of the flood” deals with all those issues and thats why you never hear those questions on any serious debate on origins. The biblical account is adequately feasible by all standards. The question rather is did it happen or not.

        The real problem with the flood account is not if it was feasible, but whether or not it occurred. The fact is there are evidences that support its occurrence, the same of which are also attributed to millions of years. So the problem is not evidence, the problem is the implication is what is dreaded most. If the flood occurred then:

        1. That old book is a true account of history, something many wish it was not

        2. Science textbooks with millions of years theories have to be re-written, a problem that a self-correcting science is unwilling to face

        3. the law of God exists, disobedience leads to human suffering and pain, and God has the prerogative to judge the wicked and give justice to the oppressed and obedient too. Thus judgment is real, a concept that man is unwilling to yield to. Man would rather be the judge than face a judgment and give accountability.

        These are the issues, the implication, not whether a flood occurred or not.

        Also, no one is born an atheist, unless atheism is ignorance about the existence of God and not a willful decision of unbelief. We are born without knowledge of even who our biological father is, his name, his tribe, his occupation, his likes and dislikes, but of course he exists and we learn who he is. So it is with God.

        I hope this helps someone. Thanks

        Like

  65. MK
    January 13, 2016

    Bwana Victor shikuku the science and understanding it seems to be fraught with personal interpretations…… i am not saying we suspend all debate on the science no;
    just as you had suggested we could approach the issue of the god of the bible from a historical perspective. and examine stories and major events cited in the bible then look at religions that predate the bible some by 1000 years.
    and the explain how religions and myths that predate both the bible and torah contain these stories myths and ideas the questions is who copied who?
    and most major event described in the bible can be traced back to older religions.
    the idea of
    god of light
    god the creator of man
    the fall of man and a talking snake( really a talking snake?)
    the flood of noah
    the ten commandments
    the list is long but lets just start with those.

    Like

    • VICTOR SHIKUKU
      January 13, 2016

      MK I think I have presented a careful sequence of thought that is consistent with either science or philosophy that the cause of the universe is outside the universe itself (this you called absurd) and that from the properties of the effect, the cause must be outside space, timeless, immaterial and personal intelligence.

      You challenge these premises, yet you havent shown that they are indeed flawed, contradicts science and philosophically absurd. Even further, you have not given a case whatsoever to show that:

      1. The cause of space and time exists inside space and time

      2. Conceptualizing existence of something outside our space-time bound universe is absurd, irrational or delusional

      Actually, listing several items that you have reservations about such as god of light, flood of Noah, talking serpent and so forth does not strengthen your case, not the least. As though, attempting to disprove God as revealed in the bible is proving atheism. Which is not the case!

      I can attest that the interpretations and understandings I have given so far are all standard scientific and philosophical claims that are not disputed depending on one’s worldview. Not to mention that there is also liberty to offer personal interpretations too provided they are not self-contradictory or contradict standard known body of knowledge. I mean, we are not born to be reflectors of other people’s thoughts.

      Of course, as I mentioned, I would be joyous to pursue also a historical approach to corroborate the aforementioned assertions. Am dedicated to all sources of knowledge, science included…and to follow the evidence it leads without prejudice.

      Truth suffers no loss of investigation, and age does not change error to truth. God’s dealings with man in history is preserved in stone.

      And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples. And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. (Luke 19:39-40)

      Let the stones of history talk.

      Like

      • MK
        January 14, 2016

        this science thing is just going round in circles…
        you and not i make the assertion their exists an entity outside space and time..
        my reply was the default position is the null set; nothing till you can show it..
        and with science? you admit science is applied to what is within space time not outside of it.
        what is left just a philosophical may or maynot exist.
        i need not give long winded explanations
        in short you make the claim you must provide evidence..
        and having to repeat mt previous sentiment i will not respond to you straw-man arguement. i did not make it i need not defend it.. go through the whole debate and show me where i made the claim the cause of space time is within space time. i did not make such a statement please stop forcing it on me..

        and yes your words (dellusional) is rather harsh but serves to illustrate the point
        you make the claim he exists you have to furnish plausible proof.
        the leap from the abstraction of a god to the one in the bible compells us to look at the bible.
        and its history
        and history at a broader scope.

        i do not need to disprove the existence of a fictional character. in this case god/gods they dont exist! it is like asking you to disprove harry potter. he is a fictional character.
        you say a fictional character truly exists it is upon you to furnish the evidence.

        the bible has a number of plagiarisms and history shows it to be so!
        i need not disprove it any one who studies the issue ought to figure it out
        and its not a popularity contest they are not competing philosophies …

        read the history..

        Like

  66. david
    January 13, 2016

    more than 3k yrs ago man had to look for answers to things around them to achieve this they had to create a un questionable entity answering all question they created the deities jews God. greeks zeus and his family who created ‘man’ and the world and all living things that was more than 3k yrs ago
    today wen science has explained all this pple instead of pple having patience to wait for more answers they stick to ancient thinking in tha name of religion u need to raise above this self imposed thinking and see wat u arent allowed to see tha the Institution of a supreme being is a making of man not true existence

    Like

  67. J Neb
    January 14, 2016

    There is change of subject but I respond to an earlier string

    Shikuku,
    “..you are literally confused or you simply don’t understand what I am saying!”. This statement shows that you got emotionally charged after going through my response. It is normal especially when your comfort zone, your faith, is being challenged.

    English is not in question here, it is reality (logical and provable scientifically) vs faith (believing). Also, there is nothing like ‘a scientific statement’, so be free to use rhetorics like “infinity is an abstract mathematical concept”.

    “Its absurd that you imagine the word abstract to mean contempt” Now I know am not the one ‘not understanding’ since this is entirely inconsistent with where I had used the word contempt.

    May I use your analogy to get you out of confusion. 98% similarity in genetic makeup mean much more than letters in a text book. If you had two text books that are 98% similar, consider 98% of the sentences and paragraph being the same that the text books almost look like they are identical in their content, appearance and shape. Probably “a chemistry textbook and a homescience textbook” can be use to show how a man differs from an eucalyptus. Find out more on apes before you say they cannot study us.

    Space and time are not thing that exists so thy cannot be created. If you cannot fathom that, there in no hope for you. Stay in religion.

    I am moving from a point of believing to a point of knowledge. I need to be less familiar with what I have believed (illusions). It is the claim that God of the bible is outside space and time that constitute goal shifting.

    MK, Even if he reads history with his illusory eyes he cannot see these things as they are but rather as he want them seem.

    Like

    • VICTOR SHIKUKU
      January 14, 2016

      I Neb if I respond to all of your latest comments the discussion will be trivialized. There is only one element that catches my attention and is worth commenting on. But for the sake that my silence should be misquoted, let me just state that am not emotional at all, far from it.

      About the word believing I just leave you in that cell you locked yourself into. But should you be interested to come out of it, here is one quote (there are thousands) from a scientific paper to help you see that the word is not a problem in scientific circles:

      It is believed that decreasing partial pressure of CO2 in atmosphere (pCO2) is the primary determinant for the long-term cooling trend and for the growth of continental-scale ice sheet in polar regions (Gaojun and Elderfield, Evolution of the carbon cycle over the past 100 million years, Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta 103 (2013) 11–25)

      For full article the DOI index is: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.gca.2012.10.014

      Now to the main point. You (and many others do the same) presented the readers with a false dicotomy between science and faith and that they have to choose either, as though science and faith are opposites. Such a dissection is grossly flawed. It is meant to give the impression that faith is where there is no evidence and science is where evidence is. Really????

      In fact, faith is evidence based. Actually without faith science is undoable. The scientist has faith in the rational intelligebility of the universe otherwise he can not walk into the lab! I mean for example why do we take money to the bank, give it to strangers and walk away expecting to get it back after one month!! Here, you excercise faith, but that faith is based on evidence of past experiences (personal or from others).

      To suggest that scientists are people of evidence and theists are people of faith (evidenceless in this case) is mistaken and actually an insult not a complement.

      Let me give this bible text for all the readers on this platform, moreso to the Christians.

      But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and BE READY always to give AN ANSWER to every man that asketh you A REASON of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: (1 Peter 3:15)

      I can simply call it the reasonable faith, because it is a faith with reasons, not a blind one. And therefore science versus faith is false dicotomy, nobody has to choose between the two. Actually many nobel prize winners in natural sciences are christians and they dont have to choose between science and faith because such a choice does not exist.

      You can be commited in the reasonable faith of Christianity and be an excellent scientist, simultaneously.

      Like

  68. MK
    January 14, 2016

    victor shikuku pleaase look up the definitoin of faith.
    stop inventing one to suit your arguement.
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith
    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/faith
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith

    Like

    • VICTOR SHIKUKU
      January 15, 2016

      MK, the definitions of faith you posted are perfectlçy fine. Cant you see that you also subscribe to the second definition when it comes to abiogenesis!

      Like

      • MK
        January 17, 2016

        please look up where i mention abiogenesis in my earlier comment. and i do make a point of listing what has been experimented and repeatedly demonstrated in the lab. from elements up to RNA.
        i never explicitly state they have created DNA no! only mention that RNA form the building blocks of DNA(simplified pedestrian)
        go check!
        least i misrepresent the facts or be misquoted as you are attempting to do!
        that is why i delve into how far the research has gotten.

        Like

      • MK
        January 17, 2016

        science conerstone on facts
        needs no faith
        please withdraw your claim science relies on faith
        ps on a side note the banking system relies on trust not faith.
        look up definition of trust.

        Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        January 17, 2016

        MK, one definition of faith is trust as you can see from the definitions you posted, trust comes with some evidence to build some confidence of course (This is the faith I profess). But now, look at the other definition in this link you posted:

        http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith

        Science has many things that scientists believe, by faith, with a hope that they will be proved factual. Abiogenesis is but one example. We cant separate faith from science then give people a choice between the two.

        Like

  69. J Neb
    January 15, 2016

    You can have knowledge on many things but have a laughable illusions on one.

    Like

  70. Kadet
    January 15, 2016

    In the name of our accestors whose legency we must bear in mind that there is , “creator” reveled to all and known by many names in avery languge of the world , how can any bod say he is not their ?

    Like

  71. bachus
    January 22, 2016

    Victor has not commented on the similarities between the stories of the bible and those of the ancient, the ten commandments came from the principles of ma’ator the negative confessions,what’s your take on that?

    Like

    • VICTOR SHIKUKU
      January 25, 2016

      Bachus, sorry for my oversight to comment on that point. I have been abit busy too lately. Now, the argument placed here on similarity between expressions in the bible and other ancient literature is based on the assumption that INSPIRATION as taught in the bible is verbatim, which is not the case. The bible writers were God´s penmen not God´s pen. The thoughts were given by God and the writer puts it in human language including literary borrowing except direct words from God in which the write puts quotation marks. Verbatim as means of inspiration is not taught in the bible and so the claim here is based on a wrong premise of what inspiration is.

      And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and SOUGHT OUT, and SET IN ORDER many proverbs. Ecclessiates12:9

      Not all the proverbs were originally coined by Solomon as you can see, yet by God´s wisdom He sought and separated the truth from the heap of error. Thats how inspiration works. The book of 2nd Peter and Jude have also similarity depicting literary borrowing. To the unlearned on inspiration this is a stumbling block, but to the bible student this is harmonious and perfectly fine.

      I hope that helps you. Blessings

      Like

      • MK
        January 27, 2016

        victor please make a clarification did they copy earlier stories? a simple yes or no..
        no fancy dancing with words in your reply please.

        Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        January 28, 2016

        MK, You read but seems you did not understand. I hope the person who asked the question understood. Assuming by copying you mean plagiarism, I answer NO.

        I carefully chose relevant words used in the literature discipline dealing with issues of “literary ethics, communication and publications”. Those words (such as fair use, plagiarism, verbatim, literary borrowing) which are rich in meaning and thought provoking you just called them fancy dancing! The spirit of criticism can be blinding my friend. Guard it with care.

        I also assume you used “stories” loosely to mean “pre-existing literature, imageries, sayings and so forth” not with an intent to prejudice the mind of the reader in the sense that we use “stories” in common conversations.

        Lastly, am personally somewhat troubled when we come to the point of “tell me yes or no”. If it helps well and good, but in this case am just optimistic because my explanation was clear.

        Blessings

        Like

      • MK
        January 28, 2016

        victor how do you know they did not plagiarize?

        Like

      • J Neb
        January 28, 2016

        As long as the basic assumptions are that God of the bible exists, the Bible is the infallible word of God and there is punishment of not believing this, such a discussion with people like Shikuku will remain futile. Either Shikuku is deliberating evading the embarrassment that the inspired-word-of-God were copied from various pre-existing pagan religions. Or, he is ignorant of these stories as far as when the bible was written and when these alleged stories existed.

        For example, The Creation of Adam and eve (bible excluding Lilith) and the fall of man (talking snake), virgin birth, miracle and resurrection of a Saviour/Jesus and The Ideas of Holy TRINITY. Stories that anyone who keenly scrutinizes them ends up laughing at Christianity.

        Shikuku, trembles with fears that, e.g, lightening will strike him as a God-of-the-bible punishment for blasphemy. He is not capable of these discussions, he came here to preach about God, unfortunately, to people who know he is a creation of ancient men. Instead of “Blessings” read confusion.

        Like

      • MK
        January 28, 2016

        J neb thanks! i was taking it slow and step by step …and you know it would be interesting to hear victors reply on how he has knowledge on what the bibles authors were thinking!
        and how he could possibly posess this knowledge over 2000 to 2600 years after the books were written and corroborate it with information outside the bible!

        and the bible is subject to a higher threashold it claims to be inspired word of god, and not just a literary work like shakespere…

        Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        January 28, 2016

        MK, you just said “and the bible is subject to a higher threashold it claims to be inspired word of god, and not just a literary work like shakespere” which means there is what you understand to be inspiration but you are not telling us what you think inspiration is. So, let me just ask you for my sake and the public, when the Bible claims to be inspired word of God (and it is), what does it mean?

        Secondly, you ask “how do you know they did not plagiarize?”. You are the accuser charging with plagiarism, the burden of proof lies with you. But because you shift the burden to me, let me give you hints on how to proof guilty as charged your plagiarism case: You have to:

        1. Define/Explain what the bible authors meant by inspiration

        2. Show that by the literary ethics, practice and laws that existed 2000 years ago, the bible writers were unethical or would be charged as guilty of plagiarism if not just an ethical/moral issue

        3. Another extreme approach would be to use the present 21st century literary ethics, practice and laws and extrapolate them 2000 years backwards and show that there is plagiarism

        4. Show that the bible writers deceived their audiences that they were inspired (as per definition you will give) yet they actually switched authorship names of some of their literary sources

        I guess the accused here is helping the accuser to strengthen the case. This never happens in court, but because we are searching for truth I dont mind helping you shape your case. Of course if you can possess the knowledge of plagiarism 2000-2600 years ago, it should not be surprising that I possess some of this knowledge too.

        But to reply to how I have this knowledge, it is because the bible itself points to all that that some of its expressions were contemporary knowledge present in the days of the writer and so both his audience were aware. This includes vocabulary, literary genre, similar rules/laws on some behavioural aspects, literary structure, similar rites (like circumcision), and literary dependency.

        The prophets knew the literature of their time and they used extra-biblical material to communicate competently. They used contemporary structures, styles, concepts, and language for the same purpose.

        Let me end by giving you another example: The Apostle Paul quoted from Epimenides, a sixth century B.C. Greek poet but he replaced the pantheistic ideas with the concept that God is the Father of Jesus

        “For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of YOUR OWN POETS HAVE SAID, ‘We are his offspring” (Acts 17:28)

        One of CRETE’S OWN PROPHETS HAVE SAID IT “Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons”. (Titus 1:12)

        Here is the poetical passage from Epimenides:

        “They fashioned a tomb for Thee, O holy and high One—The Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies! But Thou are not dead: Thou livest and abidest forever; for in Thee we live and move and have our being.”—Epimenides.

        Just a final word:

        The words of the bible are truth not because the prophets spoke them, the prophets spoke them because they are truth.

        Blessings.

        Like

      • Bachus
        May 2, 2016

        With all due respect Victor you haven’t addressed the issue,can you find the ten commandments in the Principles Of Ma’at or not?mind you the principles of Ma’at are thousands of years before the so called ten commandments.You mean to tell me we are in this mess because someone ate a fruit after being deceived by a talking snake?the story of Adam and Eve shows clearly of a god who is not omnipresent,omniscient or omnipotent,who creates a mess then blames it.then kills his own son in order to forgive mankind.if he is all forgiving why not just forgive and mind you there’s nothing like free will because if you don’t accept his son you burn for Eternity. What a bunch of crappie(excuse my language)

        Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        May 2, 2016

        Bachus:

        Your language is excused. Now, it seems you have quite a bunch of misconceptions. Let me just highlight some common misunderstandings that you also fall a prey to:

        1. The Bible DOES NOT teach an eternal burning hell for sinners. The fact that its not conceivable to have such an hell in your mind should tell you that indeed such an hell does not exist in the bible either. The WAGES of sin is DEATH (Romans 6:23). The wages of sin is not EVERLASTING IMMORTALITY IN BURNING HELL.

        John 3:16 the most popular yet misunderstood verse explicitly teaches that the gift of God is EVERLASTING LIFE while the unrepentant sinner will PERISH not EVERLASTING PERISHING IN HELL.

        Therefore, the ever burning hell you are appealing to does not exist either in reality or in the Bible. It exists in the critic’s mind and some misguided believers too. Its possible that you were taught this lie and it shapes your present thinking. Of course such a hell contradicts a loving God. The solution is not denying God but rather asking is it true that the hell burns eternally!

        2. The consequence of SIN which is DEATH is not the motivation for anyone to be faithful to God. Instead a Christian is motivated by LOVE to obey God (John 14:15) not FEAR of penalty/consequences.

        I dont know if you are married, but suppose you are, are you faithful to your wife (i.e you do not commit adultery) because you LOVE your wife or is it that you do not commit adultery because you FEAR BEING CAUGHT?

        3. The fall of man and God giving His son is a reflection of the CHARACTER OF GOD-LOVE, and does not contradict His all knowing nature.

        Love CANNOT EXIST where there is NO FREE WILL. God had the option to create ROBOTS with no free will but which simply follow commands, but of course that would contradict the essence of LOVE. Thats why by creating man with a FREE WILL even to deny His creator, it was a risk yet thats what makes love LOVE.

        We all have the option to get married to a ROBOT and put all the softwares and integrate all commands. You get home in the evening and the ROBOT tells you all the nice words and romantic things you want to hear. But Alas, no one wants to marry a robot. Instead, we all want to marry a being with FREE WILL, who has the potential to DUMP YOU anytime at will and hurt you. Yet, that is the MOST FULFILLING RELATIONSHIP, based on submission to each other based on free willing love.

        Some of the principles found in the 10 commandments can be found in other literature and moral codes of antiquity. That I already pointed and that in fact does not destroy inspiration claimed in scripture. Inspiration is not verbatim as I outlined at length.

        Regards.

        Victor Shikuku

        Like

      • Bachus
        May 2, 2016

        Victor you mean to tell me that this god reveals himself(mind you a male entity)to mankind in a book which contains errors and comes down here in the form of mankind and have only four people write about it who seem to have different accounts in terms of people present and times eg during crucifiction fiction and the made up resurrection and by the way from Friday to Sunday morning is not three days,John the Baptist also denied being Elijah of which your jesus said that he was,peace
        BACHUS

        Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        May 3, 2016

        BACHUS

        The resurrection account is three days: In fact different expressions are used to express this account; in three days (John 2:19-21), on the third day (Mathew 16:21), three days and three nights (Mathew 12:40). It should be obvious to the the 21st century reader that: IN THREE DAYS is not the same as ON THE THIRD DAY which is not the same as THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS. The question is, which method of time reckoning is used here? Its called INCLUSIVE RECKONING. The sign of Jonah (Mathew 12:40) is the parallel given to unlock the “mystery”.

        The disciples actually reckoned the time and declared “to day is the third day since these things were done” (Luke 24:21)

        In short, the misconceptions you have here are:

        1. You failed to see inclusive reckoning of time as used in scripture, that is any portion of a day counts as a day, and that in the bible a BEGINS AT SUNSET and not at midnight

        2. You again start counting from the time CHRIST DIED. The Son of man was to spend three days and three nights in THE HEART OF THE EARTH (Mathew 12:40), not IN THE GRAVE. You seem to think that heart of earth is a synonym of grave

        Secondly

        The bible predicted that before the second coming of Jesus, an Elijah would be sent (Malachi 4:5). The prediction was not that Elijah of the Old testament would be reincarnated or reappear as THE JEWS CONCEIVED but someone will be sent IN THE SPIRIT and POWER as that of Elijah (Luke 1:17)

        So when the Jews asked John whether HE IS ELIJAH, that is reincarnate/literal OT Elijah, HE DENIED (John 1:21). Its true, John the baptist WAS NOT Elijah the tishbite, Yet in fact he was the “elijah”,. he came in the power and spirit of Elijah (Mathew 11:14)

        There is no contradiction between Christ and John, the problem is in the misconception of the Jews as to the manner of coming of Elijah. You seem to share the Jews’ misconception too.

        I hope just as Christ and John the baptist removed the misconception on the Jewish mind on Elijah, the same has been done for you as well. John was Elijah, not in person, but in mission. There is profound similarity actually between Elijah and John.

        Regards

        Victor Shikuku

        Like

  72. J Neb
    January 28, 2016

    “The words of the bible are truth not
    because the prophets spoke them, the
    prophets spoke them because they are
    truth” is this philosophy or baseless declaration?

    Shikuku has a long pointless argument in hope that you’ll get tired and leave him standing. Fake ‘blessings’.

    Stories that forms the pillars of his faith especially the mythical fall of man and the fabrication of resurrection of Jesus makes him very emotional. But these things won’t be made true by the size of his conviction.

    Like

    • VICTOR SHIKUKU
      January 28, 2016

      Am issue centered so far without emotions blurring my views or blurring my ability to understand what you are saying. Thats why Jneb’s comments about fear are misplaced, they are not an argument for or against anything.

      “The words of the bible are truth not because the prophets spoke them, the
      prophets spoke them because they are truth” is not baseless, its another way of saying what inspiration is, and unfortunately you missed the point again.

      I dont have to differ with you simply because you hold a different worldwiew, or just for the sake of differing (no one has the time) but mainly because you at times misrepresent my worldview or question it and also consistently miss the point. Maybe am not a good teacher, but the points are there to be read by all.

      Am waiting for your explanation of inspiration from which your unquenchable criticism and allegation of plagiarism is partly based.

      Like

      • MK
        January 28, 2016

        read the history..
        and as J neb had asked are you aware of the ancient mythologies that predate christianity?
        the biblle is made up of multiple books with multiple chapters. i have neither the time; patience or iclination to go through each and every one on this wall!
        i did make the claim that a number of stories in the bible have similarities to earlier myths from earlier religions.
        the history is their, you contest my asertion and not the history or do you contest the history?
        or is the history as usual open and subject to your skewed view?
        and as J neb had sited one instance of the creation and fall of man and lilith that you are yet to address!

        Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        January 28, 2016

        That there are mythologies that date before Christianity is a simple historical fact. I have affirmed this historical fact through out my presentation. That the bible writers used some of these contemporary concepts that were familiar to their audiences to construct their themes, messages and uniquely frame their work is a fact that I have also shown you and I cited a few examples. (read my comment again)

        Let me add one more: Revelation 17 describes a woman riding a seven headed scarlet beast which sits on many waters. This imagery is borrowed from pagan mythology in the days of John yet the theme, the application of the symbols and the meaning given to them is far from mythology and very real and described a reality we are facing presently. I can speculate you don’t understand Revelation 17 either.

        So, the claims you are advancing about history are true, but now comes the issue: The charge put forth based on this background is: The bible writers were not inspired (though they claimed to be) and secondly, they plagiarized.

        I am waiting for the proof of these charges:

        Finally, I think you people are tactfully shifting goal posts and distracting the readers by changing from one subject to another, and providing long lists of items (like creation, adam and the fall, trinity, virgin birth, talking snake) to give the impression that answers are not being provided.

        I have patiently handled one subject at a time, and would not mind when we come to those other items (one after the other) to give a response where I can.

        So, instead of sitting high in the seat of judgment (waiting to be convinced) and making charges, come down and take the pain of proving guilty as charged.

        Like

      • MK
        January 28, 2016

        first their is no shifting of goal posts if their is please succintly point it out..
        now please offer up the definitoin of plagiarism.
        then compare that with your last admission of them drawing from older myths.
        now the topic of plagiarism cant be discussed in a vacuum.
        it needs to be demonstrated by examples which even you have offered up some.
        and J neb has too!
        so the issue left is proof from me of the authors doing so.. i need not; why? you have acknowledged that they did..
        they were aware of these myths and by your admission they borrowed from them.
        that aside would be the ridiculous notion of knowledge of their thoughts( the authors) and unfortunately they are cant be questioned to provide clarification! and please note i did allude to that when i even offered up you provide sources outside of the bible to corroborate their writing.
        the tool we have to study the issue is history..

        Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        January 28, 2016

        MK, you are not up to task. How do you charge someone with plagiarism then you ask for definition of plagiarism!

        As you put it, the palgiarism charge must be demostrated with examples. You have offered none, literally none! If J Neb has, he has posted none, literally none.

        I have instead plainly presented what thebible claims to be. If you cant prove a case against someone, don’t make accusations. Even in a court of law, your case here would be thrown out for lack of evidence.

        You can take this to the bank: You can make many criticisms about the bible, but on plagirism, even given 20years of investigation you will end no where. Maybe you try another attack.

        Advice: study about plagiarism and literary ethics and copyright laws down through history, then maybe you will see that your charge is baseless.

        Like

      • MK
        January 28, 2016

        and yes before you accuse me of dodging the question of inspiration..
        inspiration alludes to the existence of a supernatural being.
        this brings us back full circle to if a supernatural being exists!
        and we have already been down that path..
        philosophically; their are three options; one exists or one dosent exist or one does both simultaniously exist and dosent exist!
        scientificaly; exists outside of space and time theirfore out of the realm of the scientific method. and the default is the nul set, nothing till demonstrated!
        we are back at the begining…
        i rest my case and see no need for further debate!

        Like

      • MK
        January 28, 2016

        please dont misrepresent me i did offer up way way earlier on in the debate.
        scroll to what i had written earlier and i quote

        ” as for the accusation my one sided crutch we can dabble in a bit of ancient history.

        as for the god of the bible; and let their be light thing please look up amon Egyptian sun god bringer of light and Ra the creator breather of life.. united into one monotheistic god amonra by Akhenaten around 1300bc. bible first books written around 600 bc… i wonder where they got the idea?? hummm Egypt and the middle east aint like a a gazillion Jillion miles apart and ideas/ stories/ religions/ philosophies do travel with merchants…”

        to which you gave no reply!

        Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        January 29, 2016

        On tht not, that no further debate for known reasons I conclude by saying:

        Varied concepts of deities have existed even in africa, and before Moses wrote too. That is a historical fact that need not to be defended (And it poses no problem to the bible believer for all these are chronicled). But if you want to build on that fact a case concerning the bible then you are called to defense and not just “throw” charges and allegations.

        Religions, philosophies even scientific theories do travel. That is fact, and it is good news indeed. Otherwise if ideas were localized I guess you know where we would be today! We wouldn’t even have this virtual platform, we would wait to meet eye to eye.

        Of course I never wish to misrepresent anyone’s ideas. Thats my Christian duty. I hope from my series of posting someone learnt something, to strengthen him/her as a believer,and provoke the seeker of truth forward for further investigation.

        As for those who hold a null set, I personally dont believe its an intelligent satisfying position.

        As for the dependence on scientific method for knowing the truth about all that exists, I will say such a position is doomed to fail, for there is more that exist that science cant detect. Example is I dont know what the reader of this text is thinking about, and there is no scientific method to test the thoughts of individuals, but I certainly know that the thoughts exist.

        As for the bible believing Christians in the forum I pray that you become diligent bible students not tossed to and fro. It is a reasonable faith. Many bible believing people are literally ignorant of the bible and probably some skeptics here who were once believers have learnt something in the bible that they were ignorant about while they were still believers. I reason to reconsider the reasons for unbelief. Its better to be confused that to be willfully ignorant.

        As I pen down, thanks for your time and engagement in discussion. And since some hold a null set, not knowing whether God exists or not until proven, I would leave you with the words of Paul, may blessings from the unknown God be with you!

        For further contact: odhiambo_shik@yahoo.com

        Thanks.

        Like

  73. J Neb
    January 29, 2016

    Parting Shot

    Man created God in his mind in his own image. As for God of the bible, the self appointed governors of ancient Israel (the Levites) created him (in their own likeness), or rather modified the existing ones. Then, they wrote the laws of Moses and continued terrorizing the Israelite with messages from God (Isaiah-Malachi) to regain/secure their high status and the tithes. Torah/old testament.

    Go in peace Shikuku

    Like

    • VICTOR SHIKUKU
      January 29, 2016

      Your parting short has just sent me in peace with laughter hehehe How do you give a hypothesis as a parting short, you should have proved the hypothesis during the several weeks of discussion. But all in all, let me laugh abit because the discussion has been intellectually rigorous with no moments of laughter.

      Thanks for wishing me peace, am peaceful. Peace exists hehehe I wish you the same peace, without a scientific method.

      We may meet eye to eye someday, but until then, be peaceful.

      Bye, am gone in peace.

      Like

  74. shamil
    February 5, 2016

    Existence is that which is, and God is that which is not. Existence is a reality, God is a fiction. Existence is available only to meditators, people of silence; God is a consolation for sick minds, sick psychologies.
    Existence is not your production – God is. That’s why there is only one existence, but thousands of gods. Each according to his needs, each according to his suffering, each according to his expectations, creates a god or accepts an old belief about God.
    God is a great consolation, but it is not a cure. Existence is not a consolation. To be in tune with it is to be healthy and whole. All the religions of the world have been teaching God; I teach you existence. I teach you to be in tune with that which surrounds you, which is within you and without you. Once you are in tune with it, there is no death for you, no misery, no tension, no worry, but a tremendous peace surrounds you, a contentment which you have never even dreamt of.
    God is for those who cannot grow in consciousness, who are retarded as far as consciousness is concerned. It is a kind of toy; retarded people need it. And the moment I say it is a toy, then it is up to you how you want to make it – looking like a monkey or looking like an elephant. It is just up to you whether to give him four hands or one thousand hands. It is your creation. Strangely enough, man believes God created everything.
    The truth is that God himself is a creation of man’s imagination.
    God is the greatest lie you can ever find, because on that lie thousands of other lies depend. Churches, religious organizations go on multiplying lies upon lies, just to protect one lie.
    You have to understand the psychology of lying. The first thing about lying is that you need a good memory because you have to remember. You lie to someone about something, to somebody else about something else; you have to remember what you have said to one and what you have said to the other.
    Truth needs no remembrance. Truth is always there, just the same. You don’t have to cram it in your memory. Memory gives you a bondage, a prison; it clings around you, covers you so much, slowly, slowly that you disappear completely. Truth is uncovering yourself from all lies. And there is a sudden revelation that you are part of the immense truth I am calling existence.
    You don’t need any churches, you don’t need any temples, you don’t need any mosques; you need only a prayerful heart, a loving heart, a grateful heart. That is your real temple. That will transform your whole life. That will help you to discover not only yourself, but the very depths of this immense existence.
    We are almost like the waves of the ocean – just on the surface, and the ocean may be miles deep. The Pacific Ocean is five miles deep. But a small wave on the top will never know the depth – her own depth, because she is not separate from the ocean. She will cling to her small entity, be afraid about death, be afraid of losing herself in the vastness, the oceanic infinity. But the truth is, the death of the wave is not a death, but the beginning of an eternal life.
    God has been invented.
    It was people’s need; people needed a protector. In the immensity of the universe, a man feels so alone, so small. The vastness creates trembling in him. What is your existence?
    Naturally primitive man was not able to adjust himself to the idea of this vastness of the universe without giving it some personality and without making himself in some way related to that personality.
    God was an effort of the primitive mind of man to give existence a personality. Then he becomes God the father. Then you can make some relationship with him. You may even be against him, but at least there is someone you can be for, you can be against; there is someone who is greater than you, who is going to protect you, who is your guarantee.
    God is simply the poverty of human consciousness.
    The people who attained to their inner denied the existence of God. Anybody who has ever become inwardly healthy, gone beyond the mind which is basically sick, has denied God. God as a fiction is good for kindergarten school children. They need it – parables, fables, stories. But very few human beings have gone beyond the kindergarten school.
    God exists because you are not aware of yourself. God exists because you have not made any contact with your own center. The moment you know yourself, there is no God and there is no need of any God. In fact I am in absolute support of Friedrich Nietzsche: “God is dead.”
    The second part of his sentence is even more significant, “God is dead and man is now free.” That second part has not received much attention from the philosophers, from the mystics, from the psychologists, but the second part is the most important; the first part is not much. In fact, the first part is basically wrong. God cannot die – fictions never die. The moment you know they are fictions there is no question of their death. Neither are they born, nor do they die. God was never born in the first place – how can he die? Death is the other extreme of birth.
    So the first part is not very important, but that has been given much importance by theologians, because they became afraid: “This is sacrilegious, to tell people that God is dead. That means that now no religion is needed.” They became afraid for their own business. But they forgot the second part which is more important. It has tremendously significant implications. It means that God was a bondage, God was a retardedness, God was out of fear. God was not a treasure, but a heavy, mountainous weight on your heart and on your growth.
    Once God is removed, man’s possibility to grow and blossom is absolutely free.
    A God is a despot, a fascist. Without God, the world becomes freedom. Existence gives a tremendous dignity to every individual. From the smallest blade of grass up to the greatest star in the universe it gives immense significance and love; it makes no difference. There is equality and equal opportunity. And there is no need unnecessarily to pray and waste your time, to read the holy scriptures, which are the most unholy books in the world. There is no need to be exploited by the priests. You are certainly and suddenly free from all these chains. Now you can be yourself.
    While God is in existence you can never be yourself. You are just a puppet, your strings are in the hands of God. The ancient saying in India is that not even a small leaf of a tree moves unless God’s order is received for it to move. Whatever you are, according to religions you are made out of mud. The word “human” comes from humus, which means mud. And the word in Hebrew, Arabic, Urdu, Hindi, is admi – it is used as the name of the first man, Adam. Admi means the earth. God made man out of the earth and then breathed life into the puppet.
    Now, what kind of freedom do you have? Somebody has breathed life into you, and it is in his hands to stop breathing life into you any moment. Whatever you are doing, the religions believe it is your fate, it is written on your forehead. And there have been many con men who have even been trying to read what is written on your forehead. Astrologers, palmists, all kinds of cunning people have been exploiting the simplicity and innocence of humanity. There are people who are reading your hand, looking at the lines, telling you what those lines mean. The whole emphasis is that you are not living a life of your own, you are just a part in a drama, and the part that you are playing has been decided beforehand. consciousness and its highest peak,

    Like

    • Dukawa
      February 6, 2016

      Religions were created or created by creative minds with intentions of having a defendant followers. Same with gods, Just like how work of arts and fiction are created. [These people have no sick minds – correct your comments]

      In the people and language of Jualangs there is no word which means God because the have never created that concept. So the idea of believing in God does not exist. You may ask what do they believe in? They don’t have to.

      Like

    • Jahdhamy
      April 13, 2016

      Lovely of you to speak such, its religion that taught us science, innovations and use our mind to help each other, its religion that showed us engineering of boat to travel on sea, preservation of wheat, farming, medicine, economics, justice, building, business transactions etc. How is it we dismiss it now? The ladder needs the ground to reach the roof.

      If you utter such ideas because you believe everything is science then miracles (bending scientific laws) which are cited in the religious scriptures are false then I believe you need education or evidence to help understand that these laws are made by creator that’s why we say he doesn’t have a beginning nor an end. The following is the evidence of scientific laws bent:

      Please note:
      A scientific law is a statement based on repeated experimental observations that describes some aspects of the universe. A scientific law always applies under the same conditions, and implies that there is a causal relationship involving its elements.

      And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
      (Gospel Of Mark Ch. 16 verse 17 to 18.)

      Here is a religious scripture which doesn’t contradict with established scientific fact:

      Like

    • Joshua Muse
      May 6, 2016

      Thinking that Christians are irrational beings is totally inconceivable. Famous scientists such as Dr. John Lennox, a professor in Mathematics, believes in the existence of a God who is all powerful, omnipotent, omnipresent, all loving etc. Dr. Luke, the author of the book of Luke in the Bible was an educated man, a top cream of his days. The famous Paul, who was converted on his way to Tarsus was a great philosopher of his time. The list goes on and on and on. These are great minds that subjected themselves to knowing the truth. TRUTH, isn’t invented. Science is an invention of human kind, language is an invention of human kind. TRUTH (God) is not invented.

      Talking of freedom. Do you think you are free in your country? Doesn’t the constitution limit the extent to which you can operate within you country? If for example you steal and you are convicted in court, you surely will be jailed. Your actions, which according to you limit your freedom, have put you in trouble. So, the Kingdom of God is a free Kingdom, operating under rules ‘drafted’ by the King.The problem here is of authority. Atheists fear this kind of authority, that which limits the extent to which they can become immoral, inconsiderate, materialistic, so forth and so on.

      Those who choose to believe do not do so because they are fools. God has chosen to reveal Himself in a manner which he can be comprehended by the human mind. If He chose otherwise, we could as well see him as a distant God who is only understood by a people of a given amount of knowledge. His form of revelation is so simple that science doesn’t seam to understand; so simple that science has failed to explain. This in my own view is a failure science. Some say that science answers everything, but what of a simple thing like this? The big problem here is that God chose the simple things of this world to ashame the ‘wise.’

      Like

  75. why
    February 6, 2016

    Are people with Christian names really atheist? or are they trying a slot in public lime light? European names are associated with Christianity. I know people can change their minds as they grow up but denying Christians is not atheism.

    Like

    • Dukawa
      February 6, 2016

      Of course they are not. When a few Christians behaviors are questionable, immoral and annoying some people take as the general behavior of all. People feel they are atheist once they detest Christians.

      Like

    • Dukawa
      February 6, 2016

      The group could not be registered because its compositions is suspicious. Why should a group of Christians pretend to be atheist. What is the motive?

      All these people will go through or have already gone through religious marriages, religious rights and they think in a religious way. remember culture are religious raced customs and so believing in the same is also being religious. Kenyan tribes are 100% religious.

      Does Kenya have atheist? Yes it does and majority of them are not by choice, like everybody else they were born so. They did not respond or could not connect to religions in schools or anywhere, they have no culture and do not relate themselves to any tribes. some do not do well as can’t easily get employment or relationships once you are known. Others have used deception to hide amongst the general population. How do I know this?

      Religion was started by ancient romans to perpetuate mystic and have unending world presence.

      Like

  76. joeph
    February 16, 2016

    No need to challenge God,he is the creator and he is there.If darwin finally delared he is there who are we to deny?

    Like

    • Leonard
      February 29, 2016

      That’s a fallacy you should avoid, just because Darwin was great in some scientific endeavours, does not mean everything he says is right. How can we challenge something we do not recognise, a non-entity?

      Like

  77. gudda
    March 25, 2016

    Blessed are those who believe and they have SEEN!!!

    Like

  78. gudda
    March 25, 2016

    A little exposure to philosophy makes you an atheist but more of it brings you back to religion in a better way than what we have in the church

    Like

  79. Martin
    March 27, 2016

    Let’s make Atheism great again!

    Like

    • zac
      April 12, 2016

      This is nothing but a waste of time. Nothing good will come out from AETHIST. U R afraid of following the rules. u pretend to be free but u r nt. life will make u miserable guys. u must av a foundation. so far if u r taken to a court, how do u swear? dont u sing to ur national anthem which already is a prayer? U R WORSE THAN DEVIL WORSHIPPERS. EVEN SATAN BELIEVES IN GOD!

      Like

  80. Willis Odhiambo
    April 8, 2016

    There would be no religion if your parents did not shove their God down your medula.

    I asked myself many years ago, how would a thing that can create the earth, gravity, the sun, space, oxygen, viruses, Jesus and me engage in such silly shenanigans e.g tricking Abraham to test his faith (as if he could not decipher his creations devotion), drown the world (as if he did not know man can never really change), then the most annoying of all bring himself to earth, test himself, make man cricufy him then declare that he has forgiven everyone!

    I still shudder thinking about the afterlife but I know it is because of the images of hell they planted in my head in those Sunday school classes. The soul can not burn and if you are going to ressurect then it makes no sense why you have to die!!!

    Why does man have to seek this creator who works very hard to stay aloof, talking in parables, doing miracles. They say even in the last days he shall come unanounced. Why why why? It shall be last days! Even if you came in a chariot of fire on that last day it would matter not, my days will have been numbered🙂 But no, you must always do things under the rudder. Well, I have some news for you. I am on the other side!! We dont hide and indoctrinate…..we just exist and say it plainly, and reason like normal ordinary SANE human beings are supposed to reason. Eyes are for seeing and ears are for listening, i bet heaven is for resurrecting….

    Like

    • VICTOR SHIKUKU
      April 13, 2016

      Willis, you unbelief is a product of false concepts you were earnestly taught is sunday school and you believed. The fact that now you can see it is incoherent for one to die yet the soul is immortal should tell you that what you were taught is false, and the right question is “is this what the bible really teaches or I was deceived?”. You present unbelief is self-inflicted. The Devil “taught” Eve “you shall not surely die” (Genesis 3:4) and this serpent doctrine is what you and many others believed, that the dead “are not surely dead!!!

      The truth is accessible to him who wills.

      Like

  81. Philip
    April 9, 2016

    Congratulations on your recent registration. Watching Mr. President on KTN now, and like what i’m hearing. I’m also glad that they didn’t pair you with a man of the cloth…for once.

    Like

    • Harry
      April 11, 2016

      Hey thanks too! If you are in Kenya, please register as a member of AIK.We shall be happy to have you.

      Like

  82. samuel
    April 9, 2016

    The truth values of certain claims – especially metaphysical and religious claims such as God, the divine or the supernatural exist – are unknown and perhaps unknowable. Even if you follow logic and reason, meaningful statements about the universe are always qualified by some degree of doubt. What we understand about our universe is like a drop in the ocean of what we do not understand and for this reason we cannot obtain absolute certainty of anything including the concept of religion. You can say it is highly improbable that the whole concept of religion is wrong but you cannot completely rule it out. I cannot know whether a deity exists or not, and neither can you.

    Like

  83. James
    April 12, 2016

    Everything that makes up the universe seems to follow a very precise order. From the atomic level to galaxies, its difficult not to see that a designer was at work. This designer may not be the God that most religions envisage but its very clear that there’s a being that’s capable of things that mankind cant even fathom. It must be easier to explain religion than atheism.

    Like

  84. Willis Ochieng Odhiambo
    April 12, 2016

    May I use that word. Amen!!

    Like

  85. Dennis
    April 13, 2016

    My dear religious people, what will it take for the AIK to prove it to you there are no gods the Quran and the bible are just books like novels containing fairytales to make as believe. And let us not forget the same white people who came in as missionaries claimed that African ‘technology’ was evil and moreover the first chapter of the bible has scientific errors about the creation of the earth. If the first part is already false why should I believe in the bible? Christianity was just supposed to teach children in Sunday school good morals. There is no God.

    Like

  86. Jahdhamy
    April 13, 2016

    Hohoho, Kenyan government looks for terrorists, tumeshawapata sasa. They say they don’t believe in God, Ghosts, Angels, I see, they must believe in science since its science that hasn’t proved the existence of God, Ghosts and Angels.

    Like

  87. BRADLEY WAFULA
    April 14, 2016

    This is the place that i have always wanted to get peace in my mind…I began as a buddhist now want to register as an atheist(my no. 0721 852851)please atheist society in Kenya contact me.I have no regrets.I believe everything in the world is based on the mindset.BRADLEY WAFULA .W

    Like

  88. kibii
    April 16, 2016

    If you can explain a god without a creator, you can easily explain a universe without a creator. Humans created god to instill the fear of hell so as to keep morals in check.Thats what religion is all about.

    Like

  89. hannah
    April 16, 2016

    SO how do you explain your existence here on earth e.g your waking up ,breathing….the power of science!!!!Your own wisdom will kill you.Only a fool says in his heart there is no GOD.

    Like

  90. BRIAN
    April 16, 2016

    i am proud that AIK has been registered,am a proud atheist too

    Like

    • Harry
      April 17, 2016

      Why don’t you register, we need more members. Send Kshs. 527 to 0720 549512. Then you will join our WhatsApp group.

      Like

    • Desmond
      June 18, 2016

      Hi Brian,
      So why are you an atheist?

      Like

  91. Lucas Njoroge
    April 17, 2016

    watch the youtube vision of heaven and hell – john bunyan testimony.
    JESUS IS LORD read matthew 10:28

    Like

  92. Sospeter Ruoro
    April 20, 2016

    this is a testimony and a confession from great atheist and author of that celebrated book entitle “leviathan” The great Hobbs
    Alas I am that unhappy man indeed. But I am so far from being great that Iam one of the most wretched persons in all these dirty territories. For now I know there is a God.But oh! I wish there were not for I am sure He will have no mercy on me. Nor is there any reason that He should. I do confess I was His Foe on earth , and now He is mine in hell. It was that proud confidence I had in my own wisdom that has so betrayed me”

    Friends you can deny God but you cant erase the realty He is presence and soon we all will know that but to many it will be too late they will have sold their soul to the destroyer of soul of men who wish them nothing but death without repentance

    Like

    • J Neb
      April 21, 2016

      It’s not easy to be an atheist. You have to think. You have to question everything live by the answers you manage. You have no fictitious gods to delegate this to. Atheism is not for the faint hearted. You have to figure out your origin and your destination and how traverse the distance. You know your success, safety and security is not vested on an invisible hand but rather on the odds of happening of the possibilities.

      For example a road accident requires no God or devil to happen in an atheist perspective. It’s purely the unharmonious interaction between the driver, the car and the road. The fatality does not depend on how thirsty the devil was or how angry God was but rather the size of impact, the deformation of the vehicle and relative position of a human in the scene.

      Atheism isn’t for the faint hearted. Neither is it for the fools. An atheist who is a fool dies immediately because he overexploits the fact the no one will punish him eternally. A coward who is an atheist eventually revert back to religion where there is the illusion of security and safety.

      My advise to the believer is to pray hard and worship earnestly rest the illusion disappear and it dawns on you that you are on your own. My advise to atheist is to work hard, seek knowledge, value a friends talk, live in wisdom.

      Like

  93. mkenya
    April 28, 2016

    O God of all creation

    Like

  94. Ngugi Dennis
    April 28, 2016

    GOD LIVES. GOD IS NOT DEAD

    Like

    • J Neb
      April 29, 2016

      Is this just a hit and run statement or are you prepared to bring facts on the table?

      Like

  95. Bachus
    May 2, 2016

    Jesus the Christ came into existence under a vote in the Nouncil of Nicea by Bishops in 325Ad,he was formerly serapis cristos

    Like

    • Desmond
      July 29, 2016

      Hey Bacchus,
      How you been? I have been waiting for your reply.

      Like

  96. Leonard Uzi
    May 2, 2016

    Why do you argue about existence of God if He doesn’t exist? Why do you need recognition? Why do you want banning of street preachers when its their right to believe?
    You’re only making believers to be stronger in Faith. By the way, God and Satan exist. You’re a real proof!

    Like

  97. Leonard Uzi
    May 2, 2016

    Why question existence of something you don’t believe exists? That makes you fools, as the Bible says. Why do you want street preachers banned? I thought you wanted freedom!

    Like

    • Bachus
      May 2, 2016

      Street preachers are a nuisance and noise makers,why can’t they respect our space, if they want to preach,there are churches for that,you say we are fools because a book that we were given by our oppressors says so,you don’t bother to check the facts,mind you in the post elections Christians burned their fellow Christians in a church,it is Christians who colonised us for over 70 years and yes it is Christians who enslaved africans in America for over 400 years and mind you the ship that they used were called Jesus eg.Jesus of lubeck and good ship jesus
      Where was this so called holy spirit?god is hiding,jesus is hiding,god the ghost is hiding,satan too is hiding,the angels etc are all hiding,Im a free thinker,you guys are scared because you know we will win people to freedom from the madness that religion has brought to us,religion makes us evil,because the god of this religions is evil according to the books are that present him.it’s all mythology sir
      BACHUS

      Like

  98. Desmond
    May 2, 2016

    Faith: /noun/ (Middle English: from Old French “feid,” from Latin “fides.”) a strongly held belief or theory. “the faith that life will expand until it fills the universe.” Source -Google.com

    Synonyms: confidence, conviction, reliance, trust

    So we all, without exception, believe in something. We believe in science, in people, in evolution, in God, in something.

    We all trust people who could kill us: doctors, pilots, scientists, drivers, butchers… without checking out their credentials. Life is too short to research everything. Without this faith it is impossible to benefit from the convenience of modern life.

    Atheist say they don’t believe in any deity; but they believe in some other metaphysical proposition in the deity’s place. They believe unprofitable information from authorities who don’t know everything that they trust to be credible. Agnostics are probably cowardly atheists, but also more sincere by comparison.

    Like

    • Bachus
      May 3, 2016

      Desmond if I ask you to take me to this diety can you do it?simple yes or no,no gymnastics pliz.If this diety exists prove to me that it’s male,can you do it? We were all indoctrinated since childhood with these mythologies from people who oppressed us and we didn’t question anything,can you tell what exactly will be happening in this so called heaven,a heaven that has a throne and a book and trumpets,does it mean there are jua kali people in there to manufacture these stuff,it doesn’t make sense,it’s time for you to wake up,this is all make belief of charge mama and kalongolongo,drinking somebody’s blood and eating his flesh,isn’t that what the other deluded bunch called devil worshippers do?peace Bachus

      Like

      • Desmond
        May 21, 2016

        Hi Bachus,
        Those are interesting challenges. Let me give it a try. First of all, God (by this I will always mean the Christian God), is a spirit (John 4:24), He has no physical form that your eyes could perceive. Secondly, Christians believe that no one has seen God because He lives in a light no man can approach (1 Timothy 6:16); just like no one can stare at the sun with the naked eye without severely injuring their vision. Thirdly, you’d have to be absolutely pure in heart to see God (Matthew 5:8). Even I am not so pure… yet. So now we are stumped, aren’t we?

        Let me challenge you now Bachus. How do you know that I exist? How do you know my name is really Desmond or that I am in fact male? I might be a socialbot or an android app with a very clever algorithm designed to compile a response to you in a manner that appears very human or “Christian.” Yet from your rather indignant response you clearly believe you’re talking to a real human being and not a socialbot. But you’ve never seen me, and yet you believe I exist!

        I cannot show you what God looks like. Just like I cannot show you what the wind looks like, but from the wind’s effects I can show you that it exits. Similarly, the universe is God’s effect. The universe consists of time, space and matter. The universe begun to exist at a finite time ago. And whatever begins to exist has a cause. Therefore universe has a cause.

        If the universe has a cause, then this cause is an uncaused (i.e., eternal), because it existed before there was time. This cause is personal because He chose to cause the universe a finite time ago; and choice implies will, will implies intellect, intellect implies consciousness, and consciousness is the singular characteristic of a person. The source of all matter is immaterial (non-physical); the source of moral absolutes is just; and the source of a universe from nothing is all-powerful. Now you see?

        Bachus, did you know that atheists used to say that the universe was eternal and so it didn’t need a Creator? They were wrong. I wonder what else they are saying now that will also be shown to be wrong?!

        Like

  99. alfred
    May 4, 2016

    Am amazed to find victor shikuku in the argument,the first teacher to teach me the bible.L do also appreciate (victor and mk) ,Its based on facts,non emotional discussion,it has challenged me to study my bible.Its gud to have strong reasons as to why you are christian,atheist,muslim or which ever other religious group.

    Like

  100. gamenasty@yahoo.com
    May 4, 2016

    Can these AIK tell me the science behind an egg and the chicken, which came first if atall its not Gods creation. Any we are praying for you people. U r not worse than saul who was saved. Eventually then name of the Lord Jesus Christ will be honoured. My dear brothers n sister U cant fight God, its only his mercy that keeps u alive dont even think of boasting.

    Like

    • J Neb
      May 6, 2016

      Between the chicken and the egg, None came first. They evolved in the same animal-egg sequence. Those of us free to think have not yet cracked the jinx on how sex (male and female) came about but we are yet to hang the boots on a God nail. Brother, which God is being fought? Does He exist, where is He? In the bible? And his mercy, where was it when 37+ have just died (painfully) in Huruma, where is His mercy, if He exists? Before we come to Jesus lets first solve the God question.

      Like

      • Desmond
        July 29, 2016

        Hi Neb,
        There is virtually been no progress in evolution’s ability to explain, and there is a growing dissatisfaction with the theory’s just-so stories that are touted as scientific facts. proponents are calling for a new theory, others like James Shapiro, are going upstream in search for new, extra-Darwinian, explanations.

        It seems you are hanging in there on faith that science will prove your faith. Even though science has assaulted evolution’s fundamental principles so much that that the situation is now a battle between science and evolutionary legends! Atom vs Zeus!

        If evolution is true, a “freethinker” is an oxymoron. He is neither free (since his DNA runs the whole show) nor is he thinking (since his consciousness, logic, ideas are all an illusion)!

        And then for an atheist to have moral indignation… well, we already have one oxymoron too many!

        Like

  101. musyoki
    May 4, 2016

    Desmond has brought up a very good point. We trust pple we dont even know. Atheists also trust what they cant prove. Why should we believe men went to the moon? Technology over 40yrs ago was inferior to 2days. Guys shud be going 2 the moon daily 2day!

    Like

    • George M
      May 20, 2016

      You say that “Atheists also trust what they cant prove” and by that you have missed the whole point of atheism. Atheist don’t believe in nor trust what they (or those with the knowledge to) can not prove. We atheists do not believe in what cannot produce (or be produced for) logical proof of its existence. Atheism, contrary to theism , is a position of belief rather than knowledge, and by that I mean that most atheist will admit that they do not know (and believe in) what has not been proven while theist will claim to know the existence of what has not been proven to exist (e.g god).

      Like

      • Desmond
        May 21, 2016

        George M, there is a distinction between “proof” and “evidence.” You only get proof in mathematics as Prof. John Lennox, a mathematics professor at Oxford, asserts. The case for Christianity is based on pieces of evidence stacking up and leading to no other conclusion.

        Faith in the Christian God is not a leap into the dark, it’s a commitment based on evidence. Blind faith is believing where there is either no evidence or opposing evidence, like trusting a stranger or a known liar. Blind faith is what atheists usually challenge thinking that they are challenging Christianity. Christianity and the Bible have foundations in science, history, philosophy… and experience; what we consider common knowledge, or common sense.

        For you to be an atheist you have to claim to know everything there is to know about the universe, then to say absolutely and irrefutably that there is no God!

        Etinne Borne author of the book, “Atheism” and an atheist himself suggests that “atheism is the deliberate, definite, dogmatic denial of the existence of God. It is not satisfied with appropriate truth or relative truth, but claims to see the ins and outs of the game quite clearly being the absolute denial of the absolute.”

        You literally have to be omniscient to make the claims of atheism. But then…if you were omniscient you would be God and no longer an atheist!

        Like

  102. Waitiki
    May 5, 2016

    AND ON THE FISRT DAY MAN CREATED gOD IN HIS OWN IMAGE. jealous, war monger,murderer and very hungry for money asking 10 % not minding where you got it all this in the bible

    Like

  103. Waitiki
    May 5, 2016

    We all know that the earth is not flat, but according to the bible it is. Creating plants before one creates the sun does not make sense either.
    We know the ark of Noah cannot be true, neither can someone survive in a big fish for three days, neither is the earth only 7000 thousand years old we also know that you cant create dark and light before you create the sun or stars. Considering that these are stories from the bible, its better to read fiction novels

    Like

    • alfred kathuku
      May 6, 2016

      read job:26:7 ‘he stretched out the north over the empty place and hanged the earth upon nothing”.Before science discovered that the earth floats on the space freely,GOD spoke around five thousand years ago.Look at the dimensions of stable ship before science discovered that length MUST besix times more than width, GOD gave the dimensions”length shall be 300 cubits,breadth,50 cubits and height30 cubits”.Todays’scientistist understand this fact.

      Like

  104. murigimargaret
    May 5, 2016

    Be careful not to allow anyone to captivate you through an empty, deceitful philosophy that is according to human traditions and the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.If Atheists believe there is no God why are they always so obsessed with Him? Why are they worried about Christians?

    Like

    • J Neb
      May 8, 2016

      @Margaret, you ask, if atheist believe there is no God why are they so obsessed with him? Atheist don’t believe there is God and there they cannot be obsessed something that doesn’t exist. It is Christian who are obsessed with what they believe in. Again it is Christians who came here in an atheist forum to force their way. They fill the wall with quotes and argument from the bible which is itself very questionable.

      Like

  105. steve
    May 5, 2016

    ………and when all is said and done. God loves you and you only need to believe and see HIM work HIS will in your life. If only you sat and for moment though of the earth and all in it including you then you will have no reason to collect points from anywhere just to see yourself out. seriously who is this God whom you don’t believe in His existence? who is this uncaused causer?

    GOD LOVES YOU AND NEEDS YOU BACK TO HIM EVEN IN YOUR UNBELIEF.

    Like

  106. 254christinme
    May 5, 2016

    Proverbs 26:4

    New International Version
    Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him.

    New Living Translation
    Don’t answer the foolish arguments of fools, or you will become as foolish as they are.

    With that being said, let sleeping dogs lie.

    Like

  107. VICTOR SHIKUKU
    May 5, 2016

    DK

    It is possible, very possible, to be a professed Christian for 30 or more years and still be ignorant of the Bible. Understanding of bible is not synonymous with years spent in church. Sadly, even most preachers around dont understand it either. A sleeping preacher preaching a dead sermon to a sleeping congregation. The result is present deception leading to unbelief, a further deception. Cause and effect.

    DK you seem to have the common problem of assumptions and misconceptions. For example, the bible DOES NOT teach that Jonah DID NOT DIE! And it seems you hold this ASSUMPTION. On the contrary the three days and three nights of Christ in the heart of the earth is paralleled with Jonah’s experience (Mathew 12:40). I suppose you dont hold another assumption that Christ was ALIVE for the three days and three nights! So your Jonah “puzzle” is simple only if you had STUDIED TO KNOW.

    The same problem applies to your understanding of Noah’s ark and the deluge. A true thinker would not question the feasibility of the ark and flood account but rather the historicity. I think you need to read more on this subject and talk less at the moment. Modern understanding of geology agrees that long held uniformitarianism is flawed and grossly inadequate. The present understanding of geology is unsurprisingly, catastrophism.

    The bible is also full of allegory, poetry, typology and symbolism as you pointed out and only where the context suggests so. Otherwise, its just literal, logical and historically sound.

    Its one thing not to understand why Christ died (many do not also), but it does not negate why He died. Doubt is the biblical way of coming to faith. ALL the disciples doubted the resurrection, for example.

    Lastly and most importantly, when the scales of assumptions are removed from our eyes and the combatant spirit subdued, then doubt leads to unyielding faith.

    There is nothing well calculated to strengthen the mental faculties that the study of the Bible.

    Regards

    Victor Shikuku

    Like

  108. musyoki
    May 7, 2016

    History is bible prophecy fulfilled. The state of Israel is physical prove of the bible. Jews have suffered for their disobedience. Hitler killed 6m of them. They told Pilate messiahs blood be upon them and their descedants(Matt 27:24-25, Lk 21:20-23)

    Like

  109. Andy
    May 7, 2016

    Most people who swear by the bible haven’t even read that much of it. Why? because society has ingrained and brainwashed and created their belief systems and then anything that contradicts their paradigm of the way the world is must be wrong and blasphemy. The above is the reason I stopped believing in Religion/s. I am not an atheists but I see where they are coming from. If you have an open mind and willing to see things from many perspective, you will note that the most judgmental people or group in the entire world are Christians! Yet the bible that you use to justify your judgments tells you not to judge. Don’t you see any contradiction here? I am totally taken aback at the noise religion have made and continue to make towards the belief system of Atheists! Who are you religion groups specifically Christians to decided what other groups should or should not do or think? Where did you get this idea or mandate you are superior than others? Through your actions, you have made me realise their is a difference between Christians and living a Christ life like. Before anyone of you quotes me a verse, recall before the whites landed in Africa, we didn’t know what a bible was and that means we didn’t know Christ. Yet we are told of stories people lived in harmony and were closer to God than we are today. An example would be, Kikuyus would worship around the Mugumo Tree, they would pray for rains and more often than not, it would rain. By virtue of that, it should be obvious that our forefathers understood God better than the current people. So don’t sit there and feel more important to pass on judgment to others. You, the Atheists and I are one…human beings! For anyone out there who really wants to understand in a way that makes sense the connections between all these religions, atheists, and any other group, I recommend a book entitled “Conversation With God book 1”. However, you MUST have an open mind.

    Like

  110. musyoki
    May 8, 2016

    Andy I agree. Our traditions were fine. Blessings were there coz they obeyed the creator without knowing-parents were respected, sexual immorality was rare. Virgins of marriable age was the norm, not the rarity it is now. We got a watered down gospel.

    Like

    • VICTOR SHIKUKU
      May 9, 2016

      The Bible describes the depravity of fallen human nature. Man cannot save man, yet man needs help. His maker is the only remedy.

      If the Bible was to be re-written today it will still be the same. There will be the Davids who sleeps with his neighbor’s wife, the Davids who assassinates, the Mary who is a harlot, the Judas who is driven by love of money, the Abraham who lies, the Judah who commits incest, Moses who kills and buried the body, the Thomas who depends on sight (he must see in order to believe), the Pharoah who denies existence of God, the Herod who listens to the masses, the Shadrack’s who stand for truth though the heavens fall, the soldiers who receive bribe to lie about the resurrection, the tax collectors who take more than is due and so on.

      The bible is a true account of human nature, the weaknesses and strengths and thank God the remedy as well. Everyone who studies the bible will find himself described therein. Our characters are wanting, for all have sinned. No one can be the first to cast a stone.

      Evil is seated in the human heart, the solution is only receiving a new heart. Only ONE PERSON has the MORAL AUTHORITY to say COME and FOLLOW ME, because He lived a blameless life, the man JESUS CHRIST.

      If these men with such weaknesses and moral failures were transformed and bore the word of God with unyielding faith, we surely can be transformed too.

      Regards.

      Victor Shikuku

      Like

  111. musyoki
    May 8, 2016

    Andy I agree. Our traditions were fine. Blessings were there coz they obeyed the creator without knowing-parents were respected, sexual immorality was rare. Virgins of marriable age was the norm, not the rarity it is. We got a diluted gospel, paying 4 it.

    Like

  112. Emmanuel Mukoya
    May 9, 2016

    Sometimes I feel like worship places should be raided by police and all those guys screaming their heads off about heavens, jesuses, gods etc be taken to Mathare Mental hospital for treatment. But then, it is sad that so many people can actually put logic on leave.

    Eventually, Religion will be only of historical value. History books in schools will contain images of guys behaving like mad people in the name of worshiping some invisible guy supposedly sitting somewhere in the clouds and watching them. The children will find it highly amusing!

    Like

  113. J Neb
    May 9, 2016

    Evil is in your heart and good as well, its your choice. Atheist chose between good and evil without a God excuse.

    The bible, especially the old testament (Torah) was undoubtedly written based on the reality of the time and for the purpose of guiding and determining the conduct and moral of Jews (controlling of the Jews by their religious leaders). The bible is not entirely irrelevant, it has teaching that if used can lead to a very upright society. However, to control Jews in their privacy, God had to be invented, and his omnipotence promoted. To give Jews the moral boost to coexist with surrounding powerful and organised kingdoms, Egypt, Babylon, Syria, they were made to believe their God was superior and they are the chosen people. A belief that has caused the world problems historically and even today.

    The men who wrote it did it to the best of the knowledge that was available at the time and in the interest of the Jewish society. Some of the knowledge has become obsolete, part of it was merely depended on cultural practices that were incompatible with other cultures. Being religious/political leaders, they had to answer questions of existence, destiny and their own importance as leader. They had to have a constitution (the law of Moses) for the Jewish society

    The new testament is the hardest to crack because it is based on a positive revolution. The jews that had given up the Jewish system of leadership because it had been corruptly ‘bought’ by the roman empire. Yeshuah (Jesus), was a political person with a benevolent ideology. It is thought he had had contact with budhism. You can find in acts of apostles where everybody was required to surrender all his wealth for the common use of the society, that was his idea of self denial and entering the Kingdom of God. His revolution was so small it didn’t catch the attention of the Roman empire no wonder it never entered in the Roman records of the time.

    The Jewish leaders were threatened by his growing popularity, they agitated his execution by crucifixion. Did he resurrect? If there is an account that would have been so accurate recorded it is the extraordinary event of his resurrection, but every writer of the gospel has a different version of the stories. If three people decide on a lie and then are made to write the lie afterwards such discrepancies (if you know them) must arise. His ideologies for their benefit did not die. Paul, with the death of the Yeshuah, found an opportunity to lead the group he had envied so much. But since he was a rival initially, he was not welcome by the other disciples until he was in command of a very large gentile following. With his Roman ‘passport’ he was able to sell the idea of ‘self denial and the kingdom’ to the non-Jews with his version of Jesus and became very prominent. Under his leadership, the movement became Christianity.

    If the new testament was to make sense with Jesus as the son of God, most of the letter in the new testament would have been written by Jesus himself. However, Jesus, a Jew, himself was only agitated by the hypocrisy of the Jewish leaders and the oppression of the roman empire. Christianity despite measure to suppress it, it spread over to Rome courtesy of Paul, his converts and his letters. Around the 3rd century AD Christianity was threatening the dominant religion in the roman empire and the empire itself, the empire succumbed, took and seriously mixed it with Zoroastism. Jesus was a revolutionist like anyone else but they made him son of God in his death. How Torah was combined with christian writting to become the the bible is a story of another day. The bible doesn’t have a story like this and christian today believe it the way it is, they believe in the absurdity of a chosen race, new Jerusalem, heaven with Jewish elders etc without attempting the solve the puzzles, so I invite their arrogance and quotes from this bible…

    Like

  114. Luke Johnson
    May 10, 2016

    You must be living in a parallel universe or some world which we are yet to discover. This from a Luo kenyan about an incident that happened 26 years ago. When I was a less than 1 year old Christian I used to go to the Uhuru Park and preach the Gospel. Well if I have no proof God is there I think I can say without doubt that Satan exists. Now this was Thursday 1990 that I made my way to the Park. I had a thought in my head that said and these are the exact words. Because you are preaching this gospel Satan will try and kill your parents. I lived in sth B at the time. I thought nothing of it but decided not to preach that day. But headed back home. To my surprise I saw my parents packing their bags in to the car and said that they had decided suddenly to go home to the reserve in Western Kenya. I thought nothing more about that earlier thought. Later in the day I guess they made it to the home. Days passed and on Monday at about noon I felt a strong urge to pray. In fact I tried to brush it off but it was so strong that I could not do anything else. So I prayed the best way I could till I got relief. The next day my parents arrived in the morning and my mum had a shocked look on her face. She said in low tones. Today you would have been orphans. These are her exact words. I reflected on what had happened on Thursday and Monday. She told me this shocking tale. On Monday they set off for Nairobi. They were in Naivashia at night when my Mum decided to change places with my dad and drive. He dozed off! Then something unexpected happened. The engine switched off, the steering locked and the brakes failed. To make matters worse the car started to leave its lane and go onto the other lane of incoming traffic. There was a car coming from the other side. That fellow sensed danger and accelerated on time and instead of a head on collusion the cars glanced each other and his cars engine caught fire which was put of quickly. So they stopped and continued the journey the next day. Now I have never told my mother about the premonition that took place before the whole thing or the incident on Monday.

    So as a result a few pointers, there is a struggle between good and evil. Evil forces are at work and control people through their minds. You will not believe it but he makes you think that you are the one thinking the thoughts but they can come from him. He can use your mind to lead you to your own destruction. You are either on the side of God or Satan there is no vacuum. Nature hates vacuum. So even if you do not believe in either God or Satan by default you are on either side you are not independent as atheists may think.

    Finally I received a report about Satan whether I believed it or not something dreadful was about to happened actually and tangibly as a result of unseen forces that you deny their existence even if they were able to do something tangible ie cause and accident.

    There was an opposing force that impelled me to pray and disaster was averted. The bible says the thief comes to steal kill and destroy.

    So you atheist believe in nothing, thats good! To me I saw the Job experience Live! But to you its a myth. I have debated atheists and as sure as they are that God is non existent they have not way except by their own reasoning to conclude that God is not. But we demand more. If you can make life from scratch in the lab then that would prove that God is not necessary for creation of life and that would put a nail on the coffin of Christianity. When you have that come back to me and we can talk!

    Like

  115. musyoki
    May 11, 2016

    Atheists are trying to create the creator in their own image by expecting him to be showing himself to everyone everytime everywhere. I cant see a better prove for atheists than bible prophecy(written b4 events occured) and history(after the events).

    Liked by 1 person

    • J Neb
      May 12, 2016

      @Musyoki, Atheism is not new and the bible has not made any tangible prophesy about it. There were Sadducee. Again atheist don’t believe in the existence of a God. Satan is just the other face of God, they are illusions. You can be evil or good, the choice is always yours, blaming other supernatural beings that don’t exist is escaping from your responsibilities.

      Your friend Johnson is trying to demonstrate that a devil exist. You people read the bible but you don’t even understand it. The devil asks permission from God to test (torment) those who are faithful (Job story) and God watches the suffering of his faithful servant (good God?). So the devil ask God permission to cause accident to Johnson’s parents because he was preaching? His story doesn’t change any myth.

      Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        May 12, 2016

        J Neb, Just a head up for you:

        The bible predicts the rise and role of atheism with details. The bible has alot to say about atheism from prophetic perspective. Spend time to study Daniel 11:40-45 and Revelation 11 (the prophecy on the beast from the abyss). Its amazing though mind taxing. If you encounter difficulty you can drop a mail I submit supplementary material to assist in your study.

        Regards

        Victor Shikuku

        Like

      • J Neb
        May 12, 2016

        @Shikuku The ‘prophesies’ have nothing in particular about atheist. The Bible tries to give everything a God dimension because the Jews had not learned to separated religion and human administration. The book of Daniel all about game of thrones, and an attempt by the Jews to emphasize their importance in the mayhem, in pretense of ‘supreme God’. Just like today even back then there were people who would abandon the illustrious God. Just like others abandon other gods.

        The revelation again is written, in a time when the Jews had been expelled from Israel. And scattered among the nations, what do you expect a tribe that was so uncanny and unruly due to the ‘chosen race’ belief. The writer wishes that time comes when their belief would be proven right and tries to show how those who don’t buy it will suffer immensely in the end time (which was near, scare tactics). A prophesy that has no reliable timing and tangible expectation constitute either madness or merely wishful thinking. End time was always expected to occur in the lifetime of the predictors. Even Jesus expected end time to occur during the era of his disciples (according to the bible).

        Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        May 13, 2016

        The prophecies in the bible are specific enough to allow for both criticism and have terrible exactness in fulfillment. It DOES NOT give GENERAL information (or general outline of events) that will be most likely happen, it predicts with precision UNLIKELY events:

        Daniel and Revelation predicts ALL the world powers in the correct sequence (including the present) to the end of the world (Revelation 113, Revelation 17, Daniel 11:40-45). The predictions and fulfillment are separated by hundreds and even thousands of years. One would almost think the writer was LIVING TODAY and REPORTING HISTORY and not predicting what will happen.The PROBABILITIES for anyone to make similar specific predictions and have it right is INFINITELY REMOTE. Instead of making general statements here, its worthwhile if I would give these specifics and we hear how the critic would rewrite history so that it does not conform to bible prediction or how he would invoke that it was by CHANCE that the predictions were fulfilled? How about that? What do you say? Should the text speak?

        About atheism in Bible, again, the bible has a lot to say on this, I have not seen a willingness of the atheist here requesting to be shown even after I offered to avail the material. It seems they are unaware or just do not what to know. Willful ignorance is no excuse. I hinted to you some passages (Revelation 11) and I suspect or can speculate that the chapter may be complex for the critic to comment. Its unwise to REFUTE OR ACCEPT what you CANT UNDERSTAND. Its wiser to seek for clarification. Are you willing to learn where you don’t know is the question.

        “And now I have told you BEFORE it come to pass, that, WHEN IT IS COME TO PASS, ye might BELIEVE. (John 14:29)

        Regards

        Victor Shikuku

        Like

  116. musyoki
    May 12, 2016

    JNeb, 2 Tim 3:1-7 prophesied exactly todays society. Every dawn is a step to more evil. Xpectng things to be better is like xpcting the sterling pound to xchnge 4 Kshs. 20. Isaiah 24:no point of return 4 the world, xctly what we see. Who foresaw all that?

    Like

  117. musyoki
    May 12, 2016

    JNeb, rd Romans 1:18-31, 2 Peter 3:3-4, Jude 17-19. How can Israel, just over 20k sq.Km in size influence such a big chunk of the world if no super force behind them? Mind u Kenya is >582k km, Coast Province >79k km. There is sthg JNeb, there is sthg.

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    • J Neb
      May 14, 2016

      @Musyoki, If you see everything in the world through a biblical lenses you can hardly see the reality of this world. The bible was written by a mixture of fanatics, importers and fictional artists, each with his own purpose. The god in the bible is no different form any other god that men have created in history. As for the something about Israel find that something in the bible and remain as foolish as they like you to be.

      @Shikuku, Wait for the revelation where all the stars will be cast down to earth, as if they are glowworms.

      Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        May 15, 2016

        J Neb
        You are not saying anything substantial to be thought through. Make a remark that can be interrogated and can help a truth seeker. Those are blanket statements.

        Regards

        Victor Shikuku

        Like

      • J Neb
        May 16, 2016

        @Shikuku. I have no responsibility to say what your mind will recognize as substantial thought. Unless you get a sincere desire for truth and a readiness to dump your faith, should reasons suffice, you will remain with one ‘truth’: the infallible word of God.

        Like

    • Tunawes Make
      May 18, 2016

      You’ve got some digging done on Israel but you haven’t dug enough. The Israel you are bragging all about is 68% atheist populated. Themselves, they haven’t believed shit ever since. A Kenyan is now judging.

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    • Tunawes Make
      May 18, 2016

      Seems like you’ve done a lot of digging on Israel. You haven’t dug enough, though. The same Israel you are bragging all about is 68% atheist populated. They haven’t believed shit ever since and here a Kenyan is judging. Are y’all saints.

      Like

    • Tunawes Make
      May 18, 2016

      Seems like you’ve done a lot of digging on Israel. You haven’t dug enough, though. The same Israel you are bragging all about is 68% atheist populated. They haven’t believed shit ever since and here a Kenyan is judging. Are y’all saints?

      Like

  118. musyoki
    May 14, 2016

    JNeb, Israel defeated Arab armies convincingly in the 1967 6 days war and took their land as prophesied long ago(Isaiah 49:15-26, 54:1-17, Jeremiah 31:35-40, 50:17-20) among many others. I take ur insult with a smile, for this truth/reality u cant deny.

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    • J Neb
      May 16, 2016

      @Musyoki, Insult was never intended but a smile is encouraged. I was pointing out that your interpretation of what Israel do based on the bible is a beneficial foolishness to the Israelis. World christianity is their formidable armour. That should send you (back) to the school of thought and inquiry.

      Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        May 16, 2016

        J Neb

        Interesting how you SHIFT the blame that am the one WITHOUT DESIRE FOR TRUTH. Anyone who has followed my discourse should be able to see a consistent commitment to present clarity where the fog of misrepresentation or misconceptions (Such as Jonah in the belly account, 3 days and 3 nights of Christ, Elijah-John-Christ supposed contradiction, eternal burning hell among others) are presented as bible ‘truth’.

        I was willing also to send to you supplementary material on atheism in the bible from a prophetic perspective. Only silence followed. Yet, am still the one WITHOUT DESIRE for truth.

        In fact there was no submission on the critic’s side that he was honestly misguided on these points. But since there was no followup on the responses given, it is safe to say the critic was satisfied or maybe he went back to study.

        Your comment on “glowworms” though you defend it, does not add anything meaningful for inquiry in the issues that were in context being discussed (and of course you are not under any obligation either). The point is; to respond TO IT will only begin an empty THREAD of comments, in short A DISTRACTION FROM THE ISSUE.

        Also, Name calling and labeling does not strengthen anyone’s case.

        This present comment does not have any additions and specific response to issues in the discussions and there is nothing pending requiring a response too. It is a caution on a SUBTLE DEVIATION from issues, suggesting the arguments are exhausted, at least for now. Such comments will distract the reader.

        Regards

        Victor Shikuku

        Like

  119. musyoki
    May 16, 2016

    J Neb, if you read the scriptures I quoted abt Israel, what do you have to say about them? This isnt sthg she had to do like build a tower to fulfil the vision of her ancestors, it is surviving against neighbours sworn to her destruction! Luke 24:45.

    Like

    • J Neb
      May 17, 2016

      @Musyoki, About the matter, I stick to my comment above.

      Like

  120. musyoki
    May 17, 2016

    J Neb, Shikuku xplaind how prophecy has been precise u would think it was history itself. 2 me, he was feeding u solid food. I brought the issue of Israel as milk coz anyone who can rd the bible and know her recent history can c the truth. R u backng off?

    Like

    • J Neb
      May 18, 2016

      @Musyoki, I have done my homework and made a personal conclusion that the bible is purely work of men. Religion is an addiction and Shikuku is just offering something to sniff and be high like him, that is what I will avoid and ‘back off’ because I value my sanity.

      Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        May 19, 2016

        J Neb

        First, appreciate that just because I submit to Christianity and you dont does not make you SANE and makes me “HIGH”. That is street talk (emotions) that DOES NOT strengthen your case. Name calling and labeling does not DEFINE what truth is or what error is.

        I PLAINLY pointed to you that many bible prophecies are SPECIFIC INCLUDING TIME PERIODS and not general statements that will most likely be fulfilled:

        Just one on the baptism and death of Christ written by Daniel OVER 480 YEARS BEFORE Christ was born.:

        Daniel 9:25 SEVENTY WEEKS are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and TO ANOINT THE MOST HOLY.

        25 Know therefore and understand, that FROM the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem UNTO THE MESSIAH the Prince shall be SEVEN WEEKS, and THREESCORE AND TWO WEEKS: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

        26 And after THREESCORE AND TWO WEEKS shall MESSIAH BE CUT OFF, but NOT FOR HIMSELF: and the people of the prince that shall come shall DESTROY THE CITY and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

        27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for ONE WEEK: and in the MIDST OF THE WEEK he shall cause THE SACRIFICE and the oblation TO CEASE, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

        Can you tell us HOW Daniel KNEW the PRECISE TIME when Christ would be ANOINTED (Baptized) and when He shall be CUT OFF (crucified). The years are given in Luke 3:1, the FIFTEENTH YEAR of the reign of Tiberius Caesar.

        What is the mathematical probability that Daniel guessed by CHANCE and was SPOT ON to the letter? How many molecules had to be in the right place at the right time withing 480 years for the events to coincide with terrible exactness?

        Can you also ATTEMPT and give us DETAILS including TIME of what will happen 2 WEEKS FROM NOW concerning someone NOT YET BORN, 480 years may be too far for us to test your prediction.

        Victor Shikuku

        Like

  121. Anonymous
    May 18, 2016

    i preach morality that is my religion.Morality is doing what is right,religion is doing what u r told is right..u should do things because u want to not because u were told to…Consider someone of a different faith as u,do u think they will go to hell cz u r a christian and they r muslims..??think abt it…dont let people sway u into religion.we should all preach morality.thats e religion for all

    Like

  122. musyoki
    May 18, 2016

    Tumawes Make, it is u who hasnt dug me 2 know I know about secularism, if u wish atheism in Israel. The bible foretold it(Romans 11:13-32, Jer 31:31-37, Deut 32:15-36). It is not them who give life, it is the one they rejected who does. Thanks.

    Like

    • Desmond
      May 18, 2016

      Atheism IS a religion.

      Just like most religious people, an atheist BELIEVES that atheism is the true and exclusive view of the world and all other religions are false; like other religions, atheism has a set of narratives about man’s origin, purpose and destiny; like most religions, atheism offers answers to the problem of evil; atheism has doctrines, such as the Humanist Manifesto or Origin of Species; atheists believe in making converts (evangelism) such Dawkins’ bus adverts; religious converts to atheism testify of “feeling liberated” or “relief” (that there is no God or Judgement Day after all!); atheism has prophets (Nietzsche, Marx, Freud, Darwin) and priests (the New Atheists)…to tell them how to live.

      Atheism’s deity is man. ” …We are the kingdom, the power, and the glory for ever and ever” Jeremy Rifkin, atheist.

      Atheists have religious rituals; such as meeting together to encourage each other or Darwin Day.

      Religion, good or bad, everyone has one. An atheist needs to believe…can’t help but believe.

      “Man is incurably religious” -Robert A. Millikan

      Like

  123. musyoki
    May 18, 2016

    J Neb, if the bible is the work of men, they were very smart, very smart than u n me n all of us living 2day. What they told is happening now! It was inspired men. If u will, rd Dan 2:1-45(vs.40-45-think UN, AU, EAC etc). We r there JNeb, beta get ready.

    Like

  124. J Neb
    May 20, 2016

    @Shukuku, How can you be sober if you have even gone ahead to reproduce bible verses here. That’s so desperate.

    However, I respect your devotion to Christianity and the Bible. A story in the prophesies are fulfilled in another story (Jeremiah-Jesus) in the same book. There is nothing that prevents the prophesies about kingdoms by Jeremiahs and the likes to be written after they happened and be labelled prophesies. There is strong evidence that the story of Jesus in the Gospels are made up to suit the prophesies and posthumously venerate Jesus into a god. I could accept your challenge and provide this information but my knowledge and experience tells me that faith and reason can never converge. Besides, I am not an evangelical atheist. Christianity has thrived by eliminating reason, even when Christians attempt to reason, it is within the limits of faith. Anyone who dares go outside their faith eventually discovers they are in shackles. Like a person who tries stop an addiction, they tend to discover how deep they have sunk. Religion, not just Christianity, is a kind of drug and a very strong one.

    Like

    • VICTOR SHIKUKU
      May 21, 2016

      J Neb

      You have not responded to the text. Or you needed some expounding because you say I have reproduced the texts suggests you needed some explanations, do you? Personally I understand the texts, so I didnt burden my self with explanatory notes (assuming you understood them too). Because if you really understood the texts, I would have loved to hear the argument to wish the text away. Do you need some explanations or you understand the texts and have a precise response on the texts I quoted?

      Victor Shikuku

      Like

  125. musyoki
    May 22, 2016

    J Neb, you dont accept the prophecies of the OT fulfilled in the NT. What abt those of both OT and NT fulfilled in our times as I pointed to you a number? John 14:29(told b4 it happens that we will believe when it happens), Romans 1:20(no xcuse).

    Like

  126. Bachus
    May 26, 2016

    At the end of the day truth needs no defence,this god of yours seem to be incompetent,one he creates a faulty being then blames him for being imperfect,he creates satan knowing very well what satan would do(according to your twisted belief)destroys the world with a flood to start all over again,yet things get worse till he has to kill his own son,this god seem to be more evil than satan and he also accepted human sacrifice,that one of jephtha’s daughter and that of jesus.how can you be more moral than the god that you worship.this god give commandment of thou shall not kill but takes part in genocidal campaign with his so called chosen,thou shall not steal but allows his people to steal from other tribes after slaughtering them,thou shall not make graven images but tells moses to make the ark with images of cherubim,as well as allowing moses to make a serpent made of bronze,what kind of mind games are these,and by the way your jesus was not born of a Virgin it’s a mistranslation it is supposed to be a young woman,the Virgin myth came from Egyptian mythology of Issues being a Virgin giving birth to horus the son of god.I’m yet to get a response of the question,are the ten commandments similar to the principles of Ma’at? Simple yes or no stop the gymnastics

    Like

    • Desmond
      May 26, 2016

      Bachus, in the atheist’s world there is no such thing as “truth” or “moral” or “logic.” If you’re a Darwinian atheist then truth, justice, love… are all merely the abstraction of electrons in the brain. In which case each brain has its own unique perception of truth that’s different from every other brain because every brain evolves slightly differently from every other. Even for a philosophical atheist, there can be no universal/common criteria of truth or morality.

      The Atheist Oxford Professor of biology Richard Dawkins has said, “The universe we observe has … no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference. … DNA neither knows nor cares. DNA just is. And we dance to its music.”

      So it’s a wonder that you, Bachus, imagine that there is a standard of right and wrong from an atheist’s perspective on which to judge everyone’s behaviour. If there is really no God then where did you get that standard from? Who decides whether Mother Teresa is good and Hitler is bad? Everything is relative to personal preferences and intuition in an atheist’s world. DNA forces some people to be religious and others to be atheist, and neither one can say the other is wrong.

      If there is no ultimate evaluator, then there is no real distinction between good and evil. Because if evil is real then atheism is untrue.

      First prove atheistic moral absolutes Bachus, then judge God’s actions for us all. Otherwise your all criticisms of God are just your own subjective feelings that have nothing whatsoever to do with truth or morality. Ironically, if you do prove moral absolutes, you’d end up disproving atheism.

      “Napalming babies is bad. Starving the poor is wicked.
      Buying and selling each other is depraved.
      Those who stood up and died resisting Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Idi Amin, and Pol Pot —and General Custer too— have earned salvation.
      Those who acquiesced deserve to be damned.
      There is in the world such a thing as evil.
      [All together now:] Says who? God help us.”
      – Arthur Allen Leff, agnostic

      Like

  127. Bachus
    May 30, 2016

    Desmond let me enlighten you because you seem to be so indoctrinated,first of all belief is not virtue,you don’t need to believe in god to be moral,if we go to kamiti,aren’t we gonna find that they all(or majority of them) believe in god?personally I don’t believe in Darwin or his theories because I don’t need to believe in anything,all I know is that we are here,Humans know what is good or bad,it’s pure common sense,you don’t need religion to teach you that.And the fact that you are communicating with me makes me know(not believe)that you are there,whether you are male or female I can’t tell till we meet face to face,same applies to you god,I cannot communicate with him like I’m communicating with him,if I do then I can know he’s there and when I meet that entity,then I can tell that it is male,you did not answer my question though,how can you tell that’s it’s male?can you do answer straight without hovering about,if you can’t tell,be honest and say you cannot tell,by the way Hitler was a christian and all those other people you mentioned believed in a god.So you are pissing on your foot with that argument of morality,you Christians are so arrogant thinking that you have a higher moral standard just because you believe in a made up entity called jesus who was created from the vote of bishops in the council of nicea in 325AD,we non believer just don’t believe in make belief,Christianity and all religions make people evil and a bunch of hypocrites,look at Christians,during weekdays they do all manner of immoral activities then come Sunday,all of a sudden everyone is holy,at the end of the day,this is the only experience of life each of us will ever have,when we die,there’s no other experience of life so I urge you to be brave like I had to be and start asking yourself is tithing a lie?is christianity a lie?did jesus really exist
    You talk about morality if the bible is the example of morality,that answers the questions why Christians are the most immoral because the bible is full of immoral acts,it is full of genocide,incest,adultery,theft,human sacrifice(which it is based on,god sacrificing his son)rape,the list goes on and on
    If the people in the bible existed,where are the descendants of judah,where are the tribe of reopen or of zablon,where are the cannabis,can you answer that?you can’t do it yet you insist on this fictions the ultimate being the cruciFICTION.Peace Bachus

    Like

    • Desmond
      June 2, 2016

      Hi Bachus,
      So you imagine that I am indoctrinated, do you? As I understand it, the term “indoctrination” is teaching someone WHAT to believe; conversely, education is teaching someone HOW to think. But how did you yourself come to your dogmatic position of atheism Bachus? Is it possible someone indoctrinated you? Certainly you weren’t born with historical facts hardwired into your brain. You believed someone’s account of history which you are now regurgitating for my benefit, right?

      You say you don’t believe in Darwin’s theory, neither do I. But how do you explain how human beings got here? Why are certain actions right and others wrong from an atheistic perspective? Why shouldn’t I do everything it takes to succeed and be happy even if it means I make other people suffer? Can atheism answer any of these at all?!

      Your insist that I reveal to you whether God is male or female. This is a classic case of putting the cart before the horse. You declare that you don’t believe in God in the first place, therefore what purpose is served in talking about the attributes of this non-existent being?! First establish the reality of the being called God, then attempt to discover what such a being and how He has revealed Himself to human beings. It’s like asking if the wine god Bacchus had real hair or vines on his head in order to debunk his existence! It’s a non sequitur. Even atheists can be logical right?

      Yes, you don’t need to believe in God to be moral. But without God there is no standard/foundation for morality. God is the ultimate moral arbiter/judge. If there is no God then there is neither good nor evil since all actions are relative to every individual’s perspective. For instance: a cancer is evil because it kills a man; but a doctor is evil because he kills a cancer. Without God all actions can be both good and evil at the same time, or even neither!

      You say God is immoral for the genocide in the Bible. But you don’t even believe the Bible stories are true accounts! Besides, where did you get your moral values from? Who decided what was good and evil for all humanity? Or did you create your own moral laws? The only possible way an atheist can call anyone immoral is by borrowing the ethical values of some religion. But then that’s illegitimate, atheism and religion have no common points. Atheism in of itself has no binding set of moral creeds for humanity. Atheistic groups like humanism can carve out a set of manifestos advocating for certain behaviours, but then they would still be illegitimately borrowing from religion which prescribe right behaviour. The atheist individual decides his/her own values and can change or discard them whenever they are not convenient. You say humans know what is good or bad. But how did they come to know that? Why do all people still do evil if they all know it’s wrong? So ultimately Bachus, you judging God by your own personal preferences, not by any objective standard of right and wrong. Given all that, how can anyone take your atheism seriously then?

      You say Christians are arrogant… but isn’t it the peak of arrogance to elevate your own personal feelings as the moral standard for the whole universe to obey?! At least Christians disregard their own feelings and consult a Book of morals. In the end, your “common sense” atheism makes no sense Bachus. You’ve only proven that atheism has nothing to offer a world of pain and suffering.

      As to your perspective of the Council of Nicea… well, you seem to have the Dan Brown’s flair for revising history to suit an ideology. Or is it from the Zeitgeist movie creator Peter Joseph? Jesus was not “invented” in 325AD as you say Bachus. There are secular historians who wrote of Jesus back in the first, second century such as: Tacitus (AD 55-120), Flavius Josephus (AD 37), Suetonius (AD 69-130), Pliny the Younger (AD 112), Tertullian (AD 155 – 240)…. All these and others were writing about Jesus long before the Nicean Council ever sat. All the Council did was to affirm the truth of the Gospels and the deity of Christ. If you want to challenge me on this go ahead. I’ll be happy to show you that Christians have not believed cunningly devised fables as you imagine. Far better heads than mine have looked into this question of Christ’s existence and divinity and have supplied more than enough evidence for the claims of the Bible.

      If Hitler Christian, which teaching of Christ was he following from the New Testament when he killed 6 million Jews? Where in the Bible is it written that the Jews were just above the apes in the evolutionary scale and must be exterminated? Because Hitler believed in the evolutionary superiority of the Germans above the Jews.

      “The heaviest blow which ever struck humanity was Christianity; Bolshevism is Christianity’s illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew.” – Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, trans., (Oxford, 1953), Hitler’s Table-Talk, p. 7

      Now, Hitler spoke warmly of Christianity in public, as Obama did to get elected, and as Kenyan politicians do all the time. The German folk have a deep Christian heritage, what with Martin Luther’s courage that sparked the Reformation (which eventually gave us modern science). So it was politically expedient of Hitler to position himself with the Catholic Church. Below is a quote from Wikipaedia about Hitler’s violence against Christian:

      “The Nazis also targeted religious groups for political and ideological reasons. Thousands of Christian clergy were killed…. The Catholic Church was persecuted under the Third Reich,with the Nazi leadership hoping to gradually de-Christianize Germany. Political Catholicism was a target of Hitler’s 1934 Night of the Long Knives. German clergy, nuns and lay leaders were also targeted after the Nazi takeover, leading to thousands of arrests over the following years.[76] Priests who were part of the Catholic resistance were killed. Hitler’s invasion of Catholic Poland in 1939 began World War II, and the Nazis targeted clergy, monks and nuns in their campaign to destroy Polish culture.” (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims)

      You say Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao Tse Tung were Christians too? I challenge you to prove it Bachus. Don’t just make assertions, back up your claims with sources. These were atheists and whether or not their atheism drove them to genocide, the fact is that atheistic regimes in history have left millions of their own people dead. If you want to measure the amount of innocent blood spilt by Christianity then by atheism, I concede that atheism wins by a landslide. I dare you, let’s lay out the facts of history for everyone here to see. Let’s leave no stone unturned. Otherwise avoid making claims you cannot back up.

      Finally, your say that you only know things and that you do not believe anything. This is demonstrably absurd and untrue. First, without believing in people you cannot benefit from society: you cannot rent a house or eat at a restaurant or take a bus… because in this world it is impossible to confirm if the professionals in whose hands we put your life everyday are qualified or competent. You board an airplane by faith, without first checking if the pilots have legitimate credentials.

      Secondly, wherever you got your information about Nicea and about Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot being Christians …were from people you’ve probably never met who wrote/spoke about times in which you yourself were not alive and so you did not personally experience. So you cannot say that you “know” these facts are true, only an eye witness can say that; you Bachus, can only say that you believe these sources. You entire education is based on your BELIEF in authorities who claim to be credible. The ONLY way you would not need to believe is if you knew everything, but then if you knew everything you would be God, not the atheist Bachus!

      PS
      There were no such people as “tribe of reopen” or “the cannabis” in Jewish history Bachus. This is embarrassing to the atheist crusade. If you want to challenge the fiction of Christianity, at least get your spellings correct. Tertullian, the ancient historian, wrote this of the pagans: “Most people so blindly knock their heads against the hatred of the Christian name…It is wrongly pronounced by you as ‘Chrestians’ (for you do not even know accurately the name you hate)… But the special ground of dislike to the sect is, that it bears the name of its Founder.“ Apology, Chapter III

      “cruciFICTION.” Bachus, come on. Is this word game is the substance of your atheism? Really?! I can bear with most of your bad spellings, but this is really pushing your luck. The correct spelling of the word is “CRUCIFIXION.” Even if was “crucifiction,” would “fiction” apply when that word is translated to Swahili… or Greek?

      Like

      • Bachus
        June 11, 2016

        Desmond,good to hear from you,first of all you have rightly said that indoctrination is teaching someone what to think,isn’t that what we were taught from Sunday school?we were taught that a (white)man called jesus died for our sins and if we don’t believe it we will burn for eternity.Secondly speaking of dogma isn’t the Nicean creed a dogma,why did the bishops write it soon after discrediting Areus who challenged jesus having a human nature and him saying that once the son was non existent.Another thing I did not say that chairman Mao etc.were christians,I said or meant they believed in a god(religion)the others things like tribe called cannabis etc.. I think you know better that,these indeed are typos and I followed that up with the corrections.Anyway talking of dogma I don’t consider myself in a dogmatic existence it is people in religion who are,I don’t even call myself atheist because I have the right to define myself,I just don’t believe what you believe and I came to the conclusion of not believing after spending another of time in research because I had to be brave enough to find answers to questions that demanded them with solid evidence.I respect your choice of believing,but please do not see us nonebelievers for being evil just because we don’t believe,I also need to correct you thou,there is no group of people who have killed so many people on this planet like christians have in the history of mankind,from inquisition to slavery to colonialism,up to now.Another thing,I said very clearly that I DO NOT NEED to believe,in anything I.e it’s not a must,if I’m convinced about an issue,I’ll take it but if not convinced I discard it,knowledge is ongoing and speaking of that,didn’t the christians at one time teach that the earth is flat and if you reach the end you fall over?When I researched and found out that the tithe is a lie is when I decided to look for prove if Christianity indeed is true or false including jesus.At the end my conclusion was none of them were.In fact the attributes given to jesus is not unique in antiquity,there are indeed SIXTEEN CRUCIFIED SAVIORS from different regions with same attributes as jesus.Speaking of the name christians,a correspondent of emperor Hadrian referred to the worshippers of Serapis Christos as The Bishops of Christ,so I urge you Christians not to get emotional or worked up,just open up your minds.Lastly let Me leave you with a question,can you prove within the natural senses that we have that whatever you believe is true?prove to me that angels exist within the 5 senses that we have in.smell,touch,sight,hearing taste?yes or no.Peace Bachus

        Like

  128. Bachus
    May 30, 2016

    Sorry the last bit has typos,let me repeat
    If the people in the bible really existed,where are the descendants of judah,where’s the tribe of reuben or of zablon,where are the canaanites,can you answer that?you can’t do it yet you insist on this fictions the ultimate being the cruciFICTION.Peace Bachus

    Like

    • VICTOR SHIKUKU
      May 30, 2016

      Bachus

      Knowing that WE ARE HERE is not news, its obvious and does not need intellect. HOW WE GOT HERE is the question, and your LACK OF BELIEFon how we got here does not create A THIRD EXPLANATION. It is only a CONFESSION OF INABILITY TO CHOOSE from the existing explanations.

      Also you seem to believe COMMON SENSE is UNIVERSALLY COMMON, and the question is why? What BINDS everyone to agree with what you view as common sense is in reality OBJECTIVELY common sense. Or also, common sense JUST IS as humans JUST ARE?

      Of course atheism from a Darwinian point of view leads to the conclusion that good and evil DOES NOT EXIST, DNA just is. And thats why also OBJECTIVE LOGIC DOES NOT EXIST either. DNA does not KNOW whether the non-existence of good and evil is LOGICAL OR NOT. So what is the basis for common sense?

      Furthermore, Crime is on the RISE through the years. Is common sense decreasing? And whats the cause of decrease in common sense, which should be the way of choosing good and evil (if at all good and evil exist)?

      Again, the fact that people who believe in God have moral failures is not proof for non-existence of God, instead it bespeaks of their need for God. The bible does not hide the moral failures of believers through time. In fact some of us would be ashamed if our morals were to be chronicled for people to read world over. Therefore, the moral failures of Christians in this case, is nothing new under the sun. Belief in God is not a synonym for moral perfection.

      Your last question is funny, where are the descendants of Judah for example? Really? If you were asked you your great grand Pa was 500 years ago possible you even don’t know who he was, but HE EXISTED. Now you are requiring that we trace for you the children of Judah (for example) over 3000 years later. Is that common sense? And we JUST ARE why do you care about genealogy, because maybe it goes back to the ORGANIC SOUP OF DARWIN which you already REFUTED.

      What you are suggesting for us, that we just are is a intellectually, philosophically, scientifically BANKRUPT. Its a worldview that doesnot require common sense.

      It seems that you dont take history serious too. One can deny what the CRUCIFIXION means to his/her life, but to claim that its FICTION, as in the man Jesus Christ never DIED, HISTORICALLY SPEAKING, is joke that does not warrant investigation.

      in short, your proposed worldview, WE JUST ARE, is empty. We just are, SO? Rapists are bad, so? Some believers are immoral, so? WE JUST ARE! This version of common sense is not common to me.

      Regards

      Victor Shikuku

      Like

    • Desmond
      June 18, 2016

      Hey Bachus,
      Thought I’d lost you back there! Good reading from you again bro.

      And I see that you’re still non-believing! So what kind of unbeliever are you though? How do you answer questions about human origin, purpose and destiny? I’d like to know you better.

      Before I respond to your previous reply, let me say that I really want this to be a meaningful correspondence. You obviously have many questions and oppositions. I take them seriously and give them fair consideration. My responses will sometimes be forceful, but at no time will I attack you personally, just your arguments.

      Now, you seem not to want to fit into any category… but I think it’s inevitable that we must all fit into some classification of theism and non-theism. I am what you might call a fundamental, evangelical Christian. Meaning, I take the Bible as the literal, inerrant, inspired word of God. Now, back to our discourse….

      You wrote: “indoctrination is teaching someone what to think, isn’t that what we were taught from Sunday school?”

      Did you know that many non-believers take their children to Sunday school? Because Christianity provides foundation for morality, sanctity of life, freedom of conscience… people who believed the Bible gave you science Bachus, and the moral foundations you need to denounce Christianity.

      “Atheists Take Their Children to Church, Want Religion in Their Lives…”
      (Source: http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/atheists-children-church-religion-lives-rice-university-study/story?id=15100001)

      You’re right about indoctrination though: An educated person makes well-reasoned arguments using documentary citations. An indoctrinated person makes emotional and impulsive claims because they have neither argument nor supporting evidence; their assertions are quite easily shown to be false.

      You wrote: “we were taught that a (white)man called jesus died for our sins and if we don’t believe it we will burn for eternity.”

      Jesus was “white”?! Wow! He was Jewish, Bachus, a Semite. He lived his entire life on earth in the Middle-East. Do you typically think of those people as white? That’s a false characterisation of the most important historical figure. Whites are Caucasian people of European origin. Jesus is also the most offensive person in history, which is why people write the worst things about him than about any other figure. Movies and books have even produced depicting him as a homosexual, a womanizer, a drunk, and demon-possessed!

      You wrote: “isn’t the Nicean creed a dogma,why did the bishops write it soon after discrediting Areus who challenged jesus having a human nature and him saying that once the son was non existent.”

      There’s nothing wrong with dogma if it’s true. The term “people ought to be moral” is a dogma. Paul the apostle said, “It is fine to be zealous (or dogmatic), provided the purpose is good” (Galatians 4:18).

      First, it’s not spelt “Areus” it’s “Arius.” Areus was a Spartan King who lived and died centuries before Jesus was born. You’ve got your characters crossed there Bachus.

      If you say Arius was discredited, do you still need to know why the Nicean Creed stands? Anyway, Arius lived about 300 years after Christ. He (Arius) asserted that Jesus Christ is the son of God by virtue of being created by God the Father at a definite point in time and is distinct from the Father. Wikipedia falsely writes that this is a Christian belief. Christians believe Jesus Christ is one with the Father, God of very God, begotten not made/created.

      The whole point of the New Testament is to prove the deity of Christ, such as John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.” Jesus is the Word of God because He was sent to communicate God’s salvation.

      What’s more, New Testament manuscripts from the time of the apostles existed in the 4th century. Where did Arius get his new ideas? Inspiration and revelation?

      You wrote: “Another thing I did not say that chairman Mao etc.were christians,I said or meant they believed in a god(religion)…”

      Ok. They were not Christians. But Mao, Lenin, Stalin and Pol Pot they were Marxists. Marxism has a strong anti-religious ideology. In all likelihood, these were atheists who believed in Darwin’s evolution. The millions of mass-murders (democide -death by government) they left behind was the logical outworking of their Marxist-Darwinian ideals. Hitler was a socialist and a pantheist. He courted Catholic favour for political reasons, but secretly despised religion especially Christianity.

      You wrote: “Anyway talking of dogma I don’t consider myself in a dogmatic existence it is people in religion who are,I don’t even call myself atheist because I have the right to define myself,I just don’t believe what you believe…”

      Well, as I’ve said, there is nothing bad with dogma if its statement/principle is true. It’s also nearly impossible to find a grown human being who is not dogmatic about the issue of God’s existence or non-existence. The position you’re now taking has the steadfastness of dogmatism. Christianity has dogma, yes, holding certain teachings as inerrant and irrefutable. If you hold to certain attitude about morals being absolute or relative, then you are dogmatic by definition. Your moral judgement against Christians is dogma for instance.

      Second, you do have a right to define yourself. Of course. I just thought that since you are a non-believer in an atheist group, you were also an atheist. I’m very interested to know if you’ve targeted any criticism to the atheists here as you do to Christians… since you are neither Christian nor atheist.

      You wrote: “and I came to the conclusion of not believing after spending another of time in research because I had to be brave enough to find answers to questions that demanded them with solid evidence.I respect your choice of believing,but please do not see us nonebelievers for being evil just because we don’t believe…”

      I’m really REALLY interested in this research you did and the brave discoveries you made. You can give me highlights as well as documentary evidence backing it up, because you did say “solid evidence.” So I’ll be looking out for that in your next response.

      Christians don’t believe non-believers are evil. Christians believe that ALL human beings are evil. The Bible says “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” Jeremiah 17:9 and “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” Romans 3:23.

      You wrote: “,I also need to correct you thou,there is no group of people who have killed so many people on this planet like christians have in the history of mankind,from inquisition to slavery to colonialism,up to now.”

      Bachus, my single greatest objection to your position is that you never cite any sources. I really want to take your arguments seriously, but you never back them up. Come on brother, hit me with solid punches. This positions you take are easily shown to be false because they are subjective claims.

      It’s easy to flatten someone who goes making unsupported assertions. In debate it’s called the “Unsupported Assertion fallacy,” that is, the absence of any argument or documentation to support a claim. So you must show which Bible’s teaching inevitably led Christians in history to mass murder, slavery and colonialism. SHOW, DON’T JUST SAY. The burden of proof is on you Bachus.

      Now, while you do that I’ll give you a pre-emptive apology (defence of Christianity).

      #1. The Inquisition: This was not a Christian movement. It was Roman Catholic, which worships idols and prays to the dead, the very doctrines the Bible condemns. Fundamental Catholic and Christian doctrines diverge on virtually every point.

      The Inquisition was conducted on suspicion of “heresy” (holding to beliefs and practices that were considered a threat to, or significantly out of line with, official Roman Catholic teaching).

      How many died? Cullen Murphy in his article on the Huffington post wrote, “An estimate that has wide credibility among historians is that about 2% of those who came before Inquisition tribunals were burned at the stake, which would mean several tens of thousands of people. The rest suffered lesser punishments.” He’s written of the history in “God’s Jury: The Inquisition and the Making of the Modern World”

      Juan Antonio Llorente, Spanish historian, in his “A Critical History of the Inquisition of Spain,” 1823, gave a corresponding estimate. He calculated that more than 300,000 suffered persecution in Spain, of whom 31,912 died in the flames.“ He personally had access to records of the Spanish Inquisition.

      “there is no group of people who have killed so many people on this planet like christians have in the history of mankind”

      Are you prepared to back that up with historical evidence and figure as I am? We can go toe to toe comparing statistics and see which ideology has the most count of murders. We can compare figures of non-believers/atheist regimes against Christian “atrocities” for crimes against humanity in the 20th century alone (or at any other time). Both of us must provide documentary evidence for our assertions, not just making claims. I think you’re confusing Christianity with Islam? Because Islam both teaches, incentivises and carries out murder of both non-Muslims and fellow Muslims. Look up Islam’s teaching and then its estimated death toll. Christian groups are called “extremists” because they oppose homosexual marriage, abortion and a host of “progressive” vices. Muslim groups are called “extremists” because they threaten to kill people and follow it through.

      Christians do bad things, sadly yes. Even criminal things! They are saved sinners. But when they do wrong they know that their actions are sanctioned and condemned by Jesus Christ in the Bible. And I stand with you in denouncing these wrongs. If Jesus Christ never killed a man nor taught nor commanded his disciples to kill, how could anyone claiming to be His follower then murder people in the name of Christ? Non-believers have no moral principle or creed restraining their wrong-doing. They can go as far as they want if they have the power to.

      If killing was a Christian teaching and practice, then whenever you heard news of terror bombings and mass shootings you’d know that Christians were behind it. How is it that this never happens? Do you, Bachus, fear death from Christians… or for another religion that teaches its followers to murder non-believers? Christians themselves are being oppressed and killed for their faith. You know that.

      Jesus said, “I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you.” Matthew 5:44

      #2. Slavery. Slavery has always been there as long as there were civilisations. There is on-going slavery in Muslim countries like Sudan, Niger, Mauritania and a few other corners of the Muslim world.

      By contrast, Christianity was a major impetus in the abolishment of slavery. Abolition had to be imposed on the Islamic world by the European West. Since you researched a lot you must have heard of William Wilberforce or Bartoleme de las Casas. Wilberforce, an evangelical Christian, single-handedly ended slavery in England! Where were your non-believers then?

      #3. Colonisation. Bachus I think you meant “missionaries.” Christians have colonised continents far more effectively through missionary work than by any other means. They travelled to far lands and taught native tribes to read and write, helped cure their diseases with their advanced medicine, taught them to be self-reliant, and to abandon harmful cultural customs like cannibalism and raiding other tribes. William Carey went to India and became known as the father of missions; David Livingstone came to Africa and helped complete mapping the continent; Hudson Taylor spent more than 50 years in China as a missionary and is known for his respect for the Chinese culture; George Muller did his missions in England.

      Colonisation is the work of empires: like the Babylonian, Greek, Roman, British. America is not an empire. There has never been a Christian empire. There have been Christians in government but never a Christian government.

      Jesus said, “My Kingdom is not of this world” John 18:36. Jesus Himself spent His life among the poor not with kings and rulers.

      CONT’D IN NEXT COMMENT

      Like

      • Desmond
        June 18, 2016

        CONT’D FROM PREVIOUS COMMENT

        Hi Bachus,
        You wrote: “Another thing,I said very clearly that I DO NOT NEED to believe,in anything I.e it’s not a must,if I’m convinced about an issue,I’ll take it but if not convinced I discard it,knowledge is ongoing…”

        If you do not believe in anything, then how can you think that you exist? Because your own existence depends on the very belief that you exist. So you’re not an atheist. You’re a kind of agnostic… since you’re not convinced about anything on either side. But you cannot say that you do not need to believe in anything, it’s a logically indefensible position.

        You have proven that you choose your belief, since you didn’t need to believe in anything. You chose to believe in nothing (it’s the positive assertion). And you live your life and make moral decisions as though not-believing-in-anything is true. I think this is called nihilism, which is extreme scepticism maintaining that nothing in the world has a real existence. I really don’t want to think that that’s you. We all believe in something. Do you want proof?

        How did you believe that the research you did that lead to your abandoning Christianity? How do you believe scientists and historians you’ve never met and say things you cannot prove? How do you believe that your view of life is true and mine false? You even believe in things you cannot prove: like the existence of other minds besides yours; like logic and truth…. When you deny God, life becomes completely absurd, doesn’t it? Atheistic philosophers of the 19th and 20th centuries got depressed trying to make sense of an existence without God.

        “Everybody believes something, and even what appears to be a rejection of all beliefs is a kind of belief. We all hold something to be true. Maybe what you hold true is that nothing else is true, but that is nonetheless something you believe.” – Greg Koukl, “You’ve Got to Believe Something,” The Plain Truth

        You wrote: “didn’t the christians at one time teach that the earth is flat and if you reach the end you fall over?”

        Bachus, I really must insist that you cite your sources. You can say anything you want about Christianity as long as you don’t have to back up your claims with proof. This is a constant problem I’ve had with the atheists I debate. They are convinced Christianity is a lie, but I have to take their word for it! If you really are a person who does research to “be convinced about an issue” as you say, then show your sources. Because if these are the foundations of your rejecting Christianity, they seem to be things you’ve convinced yourself in spite of and in the face of contrary evidence.

        Christians have never believed in a flat earth. This is a 19th century myth that was started by Washington Irving who wrote about in his account of Christopher Colombus’ voyage to America in “A History of the Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus.”

        The shape of the earth according to the Bible: “He [God] sits enthroned above the circle of the earth…” Isaiah 40:22. This was written several millenia before science came and discovered it.

        Also that the Earth is suspended in space: “He suspends the earth over nothing,” Job. 26:7.

        Bachus, it is a very good thing that you do your research in pursuit of truth. I do, however, seriously doubt that this research was thorough. You ought to have examined the counter claims of Christianity. Your allegations have the tone of a one-sided investigation. You ought to swamp me in documentary evidence. Look, I am willing to meet you in town and buy you coffee/tea and discuss this if you’re up to it. Because your errors about Christianity are more from mainstream stereotypes rather than scholarly critiques. If you really want to know the truth you must look at both sides with courage.

        You wrote: “When I researched and found out that the tithe is a lie is when I decided to look for prove if Christianity indeed is true or false including jesus.At the end my conclusion was none of them were.In fact the attributes given to jesus is not unique in antiquity,there are indeed SIXTEEN CRUCIFIED SAVIORS from different regions with same attributes as jesus.”

        So you were Christian once? You should really tell me more about you. I was also conflicted about tithing and did my own research on it four years ago. I learned that it was neither taught nor practiced in the New Testament as it is today by some churches. It had its symbolic place in the OT but is now no longer a church requirement.

        About the “SIXTEEN CRUCIFIED SAVIORS,” that could have only come from Peter Joseph’s Zeitgeist that borrowed heavily from Acharya S, Kersey Graves, Gerald Massey and others. Od Dan Brown’s DaVinci Code. I watched them too and did my own independent investigations of the claims.

        First, they all rely on pagan mythological traditions (Egyptian, Greek, Roman etc) that arose in the second century AD, AFTER Christ’s resurrection. Proponents of this idea, like Tim Callahan, rely on pottery drawings that are also late (after Christ). None of the “crucified saviours” were actually crucified. The parallels that they assert are forced and do not flow from the narrative.

        For example, they say that the “saviours” were born on December 25th; were visited by 3 wise men; had 12 disciples; were crucified and rose on the third day…. Jesus was not born on 25th December, this was a catholic tradition; the number of wisemen is not mentioned in the Gospels; Horus does not die in the Egyptian myth, Bacchus and Dionysus, the Greek and Roman equivalents are/is almost completely devoured by the Titans, who leave only his heart. If there was borrowing, pagan cultures adapted from Christianity later on.

        A superficial research would thoroughly debunk all these “parallels” claimed in this copycat thesis. You’re welcome to challenge my own research in this. I’d be happy to prove you wrong.

        Chris White, Keith Thompson and Paul Flynn are Christian apologists and have produced comprehensive documentaries exposing the “crucified savious” thesis. The cite history texts and interview historians around the world. This theory and many other Dan brown’s and Peter Joseph’s revisions of history are not respected positions among serious historians. The link below is for Chris White’s exposé :

        You wrote: “Speaking of the name christians,a correspondent of emperor Hadrian referred to the worshippers of Serapis Christos as The Bishops of Christ,so I urge you Christians not to get emotional or worked up,just open up your minds.”

        I actually didn’t know about this. But I did a quick overview and that raised some questions: first, the letter is generally dated around 134 AD, too late to prove what you want it to prove. Secondly, there seems to be problems with the authenticity of this letter: that it is actually quoted by Flavius Vopiscus, a historian writing in 300 AD! Vopiscus is in turn is said to be quoting Phlegon, a freed slave of Hadrian. Looks like its sources are far from the root!

        I’ll look into it further. If you have better sources for your claims, please show them.

        You wrote: “,can you prove within the natural senses that we have that whatever you believe is true?prove to me that angels exist within the 5 senses that we have in.smell,touch,sight,hearing taste?”

        Bachus, a man living exclusively on the testimony of his five senses will be severely handicapped in modern society where you have to rely on common sense faith. Otherwise you’d have to see, taste, touch, smell and listen to everything before you could believe anything to be real. Our senses play tricks on us all the time and the brain can produce hallucinations that appear real. Given that, how then would you know that your five senses work properly and are truthful? By what fixed standard would you measure their reliability so that you could always count on them absolutely? How would you know whether what your senses perceive as real is exactly what another person perceives as real?

        What you call “red” might be “blue” to someone else. This nihilistic outlook to life can make a man doubt his own existence. And then there is no hope to convincing him of anything! Such people are usually considered to have psychological problems like solipsism (the belief that the self is all that can be known to exist and everything else is a figment).

        In my first response to you I asked you to prove that I existed, that you were not corresponding to some intelligent internet software. You could not. You took it on faith that I must be human! Scientists, historians, philosophers and all experts have to do their jobs knowing that they could not prove everything they believe, but that it was necessary to believe such things in order to do their work.

        Your conscience (the moral law within you) is the judge of your words, thoughts and actions. It even judges your moral standards, whether they are fair or self-serving. You feel good when you do right and guilty when you do wrong. It corresponds very nearly to the 10 Commandments and approves of them, whether you, in your mind, do or not. Even the atheist Immanuel Kant, after reasoning himself out of the existence of God, he said, “Hence, it is necessary to posit God to make sense of our moral duty.”

        Is the murder of an innocent human being wrong? Is saving an innocent human life good? If you answer “yes,” then you’re positing an absolute moral law. Absolute moral laws requires an absolute moral law Giver (as the source and foundation of morals). If you answer “no”… well, you have no right to judge Christians because there’s no such thing as “good” nor “evil.”

        I’ve never “sensed” Alexander the Great but I believe that he existed based on literary evidence. I’ve never had a sensory experience of Jesus Christ, but the evidence for who He says He was adds up.

        “But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” – 1 Corinthians 2:14

        You have to be careful Bachus, not to place a very high standard for the proof of Christianity and a very low standard for your unbelief. They say that evidence is enough for a reasonable man, but no amount of evidence is enough for an unreasonable one!

        You wrote: “If the people in the bible really existed,where are the descendants of judah,where’s the tribe of reuben or of zablon,where are the canaanites,can you answer that?you can’t do it yet you insist on this fictions the ultimate being the cruciFICTION.”

        The descendants of Israel (Jacob) still exist. Jacob had 12 sons and the Jews traced and recorded the decent of their clan/tribe from to these 12 men. They kept these records in the second temple in Jerusalem (the first temple was built by Solomon, the second by King Herod). The city was then conquered by the Romans in 70AD (about 30 years after Christ’s resurrection), this was to quell a Jewish insurrection. This second temple was destroyed and burned down, along with the Hebrew records. Of that temple’s destruction, Jesus had prophesied that “there shall no stone be left unturned”( Mark 13:2).

        The 12 tribes still exist, but they no longer have their family records. I’ve never before heard anyone doubt that the 12 tribes existed. The Old Testament is Jewish history and has the chronology of each tribe. The five books of the Bible(called the Torah) are taught in Israel as Jewish history. Jewish claim to the land is the God gave it to them and that the Bible/Torah is the title deed.

        God, through the Bible had prophesied that the Jews would be scattered throughout the world and would not have a temple: “I will scatter them among the nations whom neither they nor their fathers have known,” Jeremiah 9:16

        After 70 AD the Jews became slaves of Rome and subsequent persecutions have scattered them to Europe, the Americas and all the other continents. That’s why they are called “the wandering Jew.”

        “For the children of Israel shall dwell many days without king or prince, without sacrifice”- Hosea 3:4. The Jews have not had a nation for some 2,000 years until 1948. But they have not had a temple in which to sacrifice since 70 AD to this day. Jews cannot have sacrifices without a temple.

        No historian doubts the Canaan was a historical region. Encyclopedia Britanica writes:

        “The names Canaan and Canaanite occur in cuneiform, Egyptian, and Phoenician writings from about the 15th century BC as well as in the Old Testament.” (Source: http://www.britannica.com/place/Canaan-historical-region-Middle-East)

        Check out everything I say Bachus. But if you do and find them factual, then you have no good reason to remain a skeptic. Because to remain unbelieving in God even in the face of evidence is neither wise nor safe. Think about that bro.

        Like

  129. Bachus
    June 1, 2016

    Victor good to hear from you…the only thing you and I can agree upon is that we are here,any other thing we disagree,you and other christians do not have a right to define me,I define myself,that’s what freedom does.the question as to how we got here to me is irrelevant because that question is responsible in both darwinian theories and creation mythology in my opinion of which I have a right to and that we will never know exactly what took place,all I know is that we come from nature,I can even go as far as to say that nature created us if that’s the answer you want,but the belief in a supernatural being who is incompetent does not work for me,it doesn’t make any sense,you see Victor I don’t need to go deep in belief,history has proven without doubt that there was no jesus who died on the cross,he was created in the council of nicea in 325Ad by a bunch of bishops under the command of emperor Constantine and talking about the tribes,I wasn’t really talking about grandfather’s I was talking about descendants of those tribes,if there was a tribe of judah then there should be people who can say that they are descended from them.so the question is if you Christians claim that the bible’s content began by oral traditions before they were written down,why is it that the descendants of these people don’t know this info through oral traditions?You see what religion does to you.let me ask you another question,why do you believe that there’s a god?I know your answer will be “look at the trees,the grass the animals etc”but if I tell you to prove it,you will start going round in circles and not addressing the issue,whatever your argument is cannot be scientifically debated,if you say there’s god where did he come from and prove to me that it’s a male entity,can you do it?of course you can’t, you will refer me to a book which was given to us by a bunch of rapists,murderers and thieves who justified the themselves using the book as a manual to do these diabolic acts on our people.you believe because there’s absence of evidence,if there was evidence you wouldn’t need to believe,you will know,even your bible tells you that you will know the truth for it to make(not set)you free Amen?.by the way amen comes from Egyptian god called Amen Ra.I’m free not to believe, I continue to follow what is logic,believing in a god that kills his own son because the world which he created got messed up because someone ate a fruit after being deceived by a talking snake,to me doesn’t make sense,remember you began hearing that story since Sunday school and was not given a chance to scrutinise,fear was instilled in you and till now you can’t bring yourself to ask the question “is all these things really the truth?” I advice you to be brave take the bull by the horns free your mind,a mind is a terrible thing to waste

    Like

  130. Bachus
    June 1, 2016

    To Victor and all christians,let me give you a short history of your religion to free those who want to be free.
    1.The belief in Jesus begun in the council of Nicea in 325AD.
    2.The image of Serapis Christos became jesus the christ at the council of Chalcedon in 451AD
    3.Christianity became a renown religion in the council of Chalcedon in 451AD
    4.Moses Maimonides a Moor born in in 1040AD a Moor wrote the pentateuch from 1080 to 1100AD these books were named after him as protocols for transacting business between the Barons or Moors and the Lambards.The Knights temple’s crusades of 1096 robbed the Moors and expelled them from Europe and took financial power in europe.
    5.The first movable printing press in europe was created in 1437 by Johannesburg Gutenberg even though the Chinese already has a printing press invented long before.
    6.The first ever bible was printed in 1475.The old testament with the pentateuch created for the germanic christians.
    7.In 1516 the first new testament bible was formulated by a homosexual called Desiderius Erasmus a playwright and an ex Vatican priest who was commissioned by Pope Alexander in 1500 which took him 16 yrs to complete and named it Nouveau Instrumentum then changed to Nouveau Testamentum,with the book containing Matthew,Mark and luke and added 1 and 2Peter,1and 2Peter 1and 2 corinthians galatians and Ephesians.
    8.In 1527 the old and new testament was put together by Jacob van Liesveld a Swedish theologian.
    9.Martin Luther wrote his own version aided by a French man called Saint Nicholas Lyceum in 1535
    10.The king James version was put together by William Shakespeare and his homosexual lover Lanschot Andrew financed by the Lambards or Jews.The fourth gospel John and other books like revelations were added and jesus was called a jew for the first time through a cunning idea to please the Lambards or templars who till date are controlling the world financial monetary system.So there we are history which we were not told but is hidden to keep us slaves.To all christians,as long as you believe in these mythologies,you will never be free,you don’t need to believe in lies for your life to be fulfilled,since I freed myself from christianity,I take responsibility for my own actions,I don’t blame a fictitious character called satan and in so doing the people around me have witnessed me being more moral than when I was a believer.It was christians that once said that the earth is flat and when you reach the end you fall over it isotherm that said that the sun and planets orbit planet earth,it is Christians that enslaved black people for over 400yrs,it is Christians that colonised us for over a century do I need to say more?

    Like

  131. Musyoki
    June 1, 2016

    Bachus, When you were a believer what made you not live as directed by the scriptures? Is there anywhere the scriptures told you to be corrupt or be of loose morals in such a way that when you stopped being a believer you became more perfect? It seems you were a hypocrite, just like most of us are. Is there anywhere when people go to church the scriptures tell them to be evil in the other days of the week? On the contrary the scriptures tell us to live good lives. If you judge the faith because of the actions of those who profess it, you miss the point. Judge the faith by what it teaches. If the teacher teaches all students and they don’t pass that does not make the teacher bad, if they don’t follow the rules they will fail. That is what is happening to ‘believers’ today. Just as what Mahatma Gandhi said he liked christ but didn’t like christians because they don’t live like his teachings. You should have been that perfect believer so that you can show all the others around you how to follow their religious teaching seriously. As I have pointed in a number of posts, the state of Israel is prove of the scriptures. If those guys can make themselves survive in that area surrounded by enemies after re-establishiung themselves in 1948 as prophesied long ago, boy they are smart and powerful. Although you will insist we are drunk, Heb 11:6 says we must believe he exists and he rewards those who earnestly seek him. I know It won’t make sense to you. John 14:29 the messiah told disciples things before they happened so that when those things happened they would believe. Fulfilled prophecies should at least help those who have no faith to believe. If you continue asking yourself where you came from, you will never get that answer. Even if the Big Bang believers think it all started around 13 billion years ago? Why didn’t it start 500trillion years ago? And why didn’t it start 900 trillion years before that. At least with my limited mind, Deutoronomy 29:29 tells me that somethings were kept secret, but what we needed to know has been made know. Also 1 Corinthians 13:12 (new international version) says ‘For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known’. It might make no sense to you, but it makes to me and quite a number. What doanswer can atheists give us why life started at one point of time and not the other? With our stupidity we believe one day we will know. But with the smartness of atheists they will never know, because they believe when they die that is that. Thank you.

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  132. Bachus
    June 1, 2016

    Musyoki why are you not addressing the issue at hand,I just posted the sequence of how this false religion of yours came to be,that is history.The scriptures were actually responsible for my hypocrisy because it taught me that there’s a Jewish zombie called jesus would wash away my sins whenever I did it.I was assigned to be a christian from Sunday school,I wasn’t asked what religion I would want to be,fear was instilled in me telling me that there’s this Jealous god who would burn me for eternity if I don’t accept a dead white man on a cross called jesus.So I was like a zombie,fear kept me believing That myth.You talk about darwinian or big bang theory like I said I’m not concerned about when it began because all of those plus creation in theology is speculation,none of us can give proof beyond reasonable doubt christians put forward their argument of an incompetent god who is racist,a hypocrite and is more immoral than the people that worship him,christians say that the world is 6000 yrs yet there are pottery found in West Africa that are 8000yrs.you referred to the bible,which is supposedly inspired by god, how can you prove that it is inspired,because according to history it’s a bunch of bishops who made a decision to remove some of them,a move which make it political.The problem with debating with a believer is that a believer had a closed mind,the fear reigns supreme even your scriptures tell you to fear god,if this god is supreme why did he create the devil knowing what damage he would bring,why create the tree of knowledge of good and evil if he knew that Adam would eat it,what was the talking snake doing there and why curse Adam,eve,the snake and not curse satan?it doesn’t make any sense.The creation story was not meant to be taken literally,it’s like the story of why had a tortoise have cracks on the shell and it explains that it fell from the sky when the Eagle was carrying it.The creation myth was similar but was to answer the question why are we humans not in heaven with god,by the way Adam and Eve story was copied from the myth of Enki and Ninti,by the way Ninti’s other name is woman of the rib.So open your mind sir and free yourself.Peace Bachus

    Like

    • VICTOR SHIKUKU
      June 2, 2016

      Hallo Bachus

      I have been reluctant to reply to you for several reasons:

      1. You postings are BULKY with many issues (most of which common misconceptions) mentioned in passing and it becomes BURDENSOME to respond to each.

      2. You STILL appeal to issues that are NON-ISSUES because they have been RESPONDED TO long ago (Things like fear of eternal burning hell and so forth, that you were taught in sunday school). It seems to me you DIDNOT READ the responses. As such, you dont seem to be an INQUIRING INQUIRER. Others have ceased appealing to those arguments because an answer was given.

      3. You are QUICK to ASK many QUESTIONS and SLOW to RESPOND to questions posted questioning your proposed POSITION (we JUST ARE position). Is common sense universally objective and why, what is the origin of common sense, what is good and evil, do they exist?

      4. You dont seem to have carefully thought of WHAT YOU BELIEVED and WHAT YOU BELIEVE NOW. Because some of the questions you ask as criticism apply to you as well and you offer no response. Example, when we claim GOD created us,you ask WHO CREATED GOD, the you claim NATURE created you and you dont ask WHO CREATED NATURE!

      5. You hold that we should not bother to know how we got here and we WILL NEVER KNOW, but you are bothered with those who seek to know and are optimistic that they will know. Then you even suggest that we were created by nature, which means YOU KNOW. You are not consistent in your thinking and there is no intelligent reason thus far for me to follow your reasoning.

      All in all, let me just respond on a few points:

      1. WHO CREATED GOD?

      Your question is based on ignorance of DEFINITION OF TERMS. From a Christian point of view, GOD is BY DEFINITION UNCREATED (self-existent; uncaused), so the question of who created God is just irrelevant by definition. For example, if I tell you I am a BACHELOR, then how relevant is it if you ask me WHO IS YOUR WIFE? A bachelor BY DEFINITION is not married.

      Again, nature created you, who created nature? Its either you dont know or nature (to you) is ALSO self-existent/uncaused, nature JUST IS and to the Christian God JUST IS! The question is which one is REASONABLE and CONSISTENT with the existing body of knowledge.

      2. IS GOD MALE OR FEMALE?

      Firstly, you must believe that God exists for the question of sex becomes relevant. How does something that does not exist have a sex or inquire to know its gender? Absurd.

      Secondly, the assumption here is there are ONLY TWO SEXES, male and female and all must be either of the two. This is obviously wrong. Not everything has SEX. Since you were once a believer you should know that God and angels are not OF THE ORDER of HUMAN BEINGS AND ANIMALS. They (spiritual beings: God/angels) HAVE NO SEX DO NOT MARRY.

      Jesus answered and said unto them, YE DO ERR, NOT KNOWING THE SCRIPTURES, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, BUT ARE AS THE ANGELS of God in heaven. (Mathew 22:29-30)

      But nevertheless God is addressed with the male personal pronoun HE. I mean, when you say Kenya and HER neighbors it means Kenya is a FEMALE right? Of course not. Or we should look for kenya’s reproductive system before we refer to Kenya as HER?

      3. DID JESUS EXIST?

      This is simple history that none need to live in ignorance for one extra second. The history IS PLAIN, not church history but secular authoritative historians who not only lived in the SAME TIME period but SCHOLARLY historians who SERVED THE ROMAN GOVERNMENT itself that Crucified Christ and martyred His followers. You (Bachus) cant be taken seriously if you ERR even on this point. To cite for you but afew of respected historians of antiquity:

      1. Josephus ben Mattathias (c. 37/38 A.D.- sometime after 100 A.D}

      “Now there was about this time JESUS, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when PILATE, at the suggestion of the principal menu among us, had CONDEMNED HIM TO THE CROSS, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.” (Antiquities, XVIII, 3, 3): BOLD IS MINE

      2. Cornelius Tacitus (c. A.D. 55-120), Roman historian

      “But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the price could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve NERO from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with the most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called CHRISTIANS, who were hated for their enormities. CHRISTUS, the founder of the name, was PUT TO DEATH by PONTIUS PILATE, procurator of Judea in the reign of TIBERIUS: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also.” (Annals XV, 44): BOLD IS MINE

      These are historical facts not from religious historians and notable they are dated closest to the events themselves. The historians and the disciples were contemporaries, that is, they lived in the same era.It seems to me that your worldview denies everything that almost NOTHING EXISTS. Jesus Christ, Pilate, Tiberius, Nero…. all existed.

      I hope this helps you and may others.

      Regards

      Victor Shikuku

      Like

      • Desmond
        June 2, 2016

        Hi Victor,
        Your responses are very nicely structured, makes for easy reading. It’s especially good when in your apologetic you cite sources. God bless your good work brother.
        -Desmond

        Like

      • J Neb
        June 3, 2016

        The four gospels create a very heroic story of a supernatural being who was born of a virgin (no sperm involved), could read minds, perform miracles (including resurrecting a decomposing corpse) and his own resurrection. And as if that was not enough, ascending into ‘heaven’ in the glare of a crowd. We may forget the inconsistencies between different gospel and assume these thing happened (believe). Wait a minute a belief must have some justification, if the gospels were right these events, by their extra ordinary nature, would have escaped observation by any historian present when they were happening.

        Philo (20BCE-40AD), A Historian in the vicinity of the alleged locations of these events mentioned nothing about the extraordinary events, nothing about Jesus and nothing about the disciples. Seneca the younger (4BCE – 65AD) another historian in the same region at the same alleged time when ‘jesus was dong theses things’ also mentions nothing about Jesus or about anything done by Jesus. These historian would be more reliable than Josephus who seem to quote on Jesus a few decade after he died, or rose, or whatever. Or was it work of Satan to keep Jesus in the realm of faith and therefore easily doubt-able by anyone who questions faith?

        Jesus himself, a god, who would see the future, found no need to write anything or perform any miracle that would remain as his proof.

        Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        June 3, 2016

        At this point I can safely say the horse seem to be dying a natural death. I mean now the critic moved from denying the virgin birth, to Jesus NEVER EXISTED: The Argument is, WHY did some historians NOT WRITE about Jesus? Really! This should be a thesis?

        Kindly note: The historicity of Jesus is testified by

        1. Jewish Historians-Note that the Jews would have GAINED MOST by denying the existence of Christ. They were bitter enemies.

        2. Roman Historians: These also has nothing TO GAIN from the existence and in fact the NON-EXISTENCE of Christ would be advantageous for Christians were “troublesome” in Rome and many had to be martyred by the Roman government itself

        3. Letters from Roman officials and Emperors concerning Christ and His followers

        4. The four gospels and Acts which are the best attested documents of antiquity available on the planet today affirm his existence

        Noteworthy, NOT ONE contemporary historian DENIED the existence of Christ as a person. The historicity of Jesus can be shown without pain from the MOST UNFRIENDLY SOURCES.

        Possibly we may now hear, Pilate, Tiberius, Julius Ceasar, Nero and those associated with Jesus never existed too. Apparently, the argument for anything unpalatable seems to be it does not exist!

        FAULTY ARGUMENT:

        Note that the historicity of an event IS NOT determined by how many historians ARE SILENT but how many historians CONCUR AND DENY THE HISTORICITY OF THE EVENT IN QUESTION.

        I mean, there are many historians today who have written about Obama, and there are as many who have not written a word. Now, 1000years from now how will you tell if Obama existed or not? Very simple, you inquire about

        1. How many contemporary historians mentions obama as a real person who existed

        2. How many contemporary historians denied the existence of obama as a real person

        NOT, how many historians said nothing about obama! Even the Dawkins and Hawkins of this world know Christ existed (though their admission is not proof, their admission is based on proof).

        MUST JESUS WRITE?

        Interesting that men now want the writings of Jesus in order to believe. Honestly? But most assuredly, there is nothing new under the sun:

        Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: MOSES, on whom you have set your hope. For IF YOU BELIEVED MOSES, you would believe me; for HE WROTE OF ME. But IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE HIS WRITINGS, HOW WILL YOU BELIEVE MY WORDS? (John 5:45-47)

        Now we should seek a MIRACLE from Jesus for proof! Really? Are we now seeking a miracle as a reason to believe?I can say, its better, far much better, to believe because of truth that APPEALS TO REASON AND INTELLECT, than believing because of miracles.

        Regards

        Victor Shikuku

        Like

      • J Neb
        June 4, 2016

        Why did some historian not write about Jesus is a question diluting very strong facts. The real question is why didn’t anyone, including Jesus himself, find anything noteworthy to write or even mention within his lifetime. The simple answer is there was nothing noteworthy. Nothing is even found denying Jesus as extraordinary. Nothing! All writing about Jesus happens decades after his alleged life.

        My personal view is that there was a man called Jesus. Christianity is a fact and it must have germinated from a seed, and a lot point toward a seed called Jesus. That should not be taken to mean what Christians claim about Christ are facts. The reason why he must have escaped notice is because he was a mere man with an Idea but very little influence. Evidence suggests that the extraordinary nature of Christ is added on him later having been borrowed from other myths and legends, these includes the virgin birth, miracles and resurrection all aimed at justifying his worship as a god.

        Did Jesus have to write? It depend, if he was an simple village man in full contact with his people there may not be any need to write. It is interesting that you quote John, it is among the four gospels known to create fiction around Jesus.

        Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        June 6, 2016

        J Neb

        Your question for the SILENCE of selected historians is NO PUZZLE at all. Silence ALSO SPEAKS (sometimes); the question is what do you read out of it. The FACT that NO HISTORIAN challenged their CONTEMPORARY HISTORIANS tells you that there was NOTHING TO REBUTTAL, Jesus, also called Christ, EXISTED.

        There is abundant positive historical proof for the existence of Christ, not only Christ but also Pilate, Tiberius, Paul of Tarsus and the SILENCE of some historians attests of no scholarly controversy among contemporary historians about His reality. In fact it would be A BIG FAILURE for a credible historian TO BE SILENT when his FELLOW historians practice academic fraud TO MISGUIDE the public. In this regard, they must have had SOMETHING to write, to set the record straight. Their silence is POSITIVE PROOF that there was nothing to refute.

        Historical documents, even from the most unfriendly sources all agree that:

        1. Jesus EXISTED

        2. His birth was CONTROVERSIAL

        3. He had INFLUENCE and amassed followers

        4. His TRIAL was OPEN and provoked NATIONAL interest

        5. He was CRUCIFIED by the Roman government pushed by the religious establishment

        6. At his death, there was DARKNESS that enveloped the land for several hours

        The above points are OUTSIDE anyone’s PERSONAL VIEW. A personal view cannot influence history. Personal views can be cherished and respected because they are PERSONAL. The FACT is Christ is a historical figure. The question is, was He what He claimed to be!

        The historicity of the New Testament is also beyond question. Try quote any document of antiquity on any subject, and compare the credibility of that document with the New Testament. One can only deny facts because of a PHILOSOPHY that he has bound himself/herself to PRIOR TO INVESTIGATION.

        Christ had his own LOGICAL reasons why He didn’t write. Furthermore, better another praise you and not your own lips.

        I can imagine myself writing a book that contains only the good things I have done. It would be good for reading, right? Of course not!

        The claims about John are unqualified statements, not substance. Lay points that can be scrutinized. probed, and responded to adequately not statements mentioned in passing then should be assumed to be factual. If you are the accuser, make a case of the accusation, and where possible you will get a reply.

        Regards

        Victor Shikuku

        Like

      • J Neb
        June 8, 2016

        When I mention, and it’s not my invention, that there is complete silence (absence of any written record ) about Jesus during his alleged ‘gospel mission’ you deliberately focus on post Jesus materials. In all materials that were written at the duration that Jesus was ‘on earth’, there isn’t any that mentions anything about Jesus, none agree or disagree or simply observes any of alleged Jesus’ activities. None even mentions the word Jesus, None! Doesn’t silence talk.

        Everything that describes the life of Jesus comes at earliest about fifty years after his death. Of all the, only some Pauline letters shortly predate that period and they are also silent about the life of Jesus. Paul’s letters have no quote about Jesus that he may have read anywhere, no mention about the life of Jesus, everything is about Paul’s interpolations etc. It appears from an honest non-Christian opinion that ‘Pauline Christ’ was ideological rather than historical.

        The Gospels came later when Christianity had mutated into an autonomous religion. Most stories about Jesus had spread and carried over by word of mouth. That is where they were woven together with exergerations and other known stories of mythical gods and legends. By the time the gospels were being written, it is highly probable that no contemporary of Jesus was surviving who could help with clarifications. It wouldn’t then be easy to separate the real Jesus from the made up stories. The mythical stories, among them, are virgin birth, the visiting wise men, popular mission, miracles and reresurrection.

        Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        June 8, 2016

        J Neb

        The “problem” you are appealing to is not a problem at all. In fact the very fact that the accounts of Christ are recorded WITHIN 50 YEARS is very very very PLAUSIBLE and its the BEST document of antiquity. I mean try quote for me historians of antiquity and tell me the TIME PERIOD between the historians work and the events and when the ealiest copy of those writings were discovered, they range in 50-1000 years YET these are accepted as ACCURATE HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS with OVER 500 years of silence. Wow! The history departments should be closed down IMMEDIATELY, because apparently according you (Neb) thats not history!!!!!

        Further, 50 years is such A SHORT TIME to develop a LEGEND. I mean, for example, try develop one legend about Jomo Kenyatta NOW and see how much REFUTATION will arise. 50 years is MOST PLAUSIBLE and the silence speaks (if at all it should) that no refutation is expected within 50 years.

        Again, the NUMBER OF MANUSCRIPTS were TREMENDOUSLY MANY compared to all documents of antiquity including anyone you may quote and therefore CHANGING THE DETAILS of the story in one manuscript would be easily, so easily be noticed by its departure from thousand others spread elsewhere.

        Interesting that you appeal to PROBABILITY that no contemporary of Christ was living, yet the the LAST disciple lived up to over 60 years AFTER CHRIST DEATH. Your probability proposes that we assume ALL PERSONS who lived and saw Christ ALL MUST HAVE DIED within 50 years. What killed them? Of course you can readily see that these assumption is extraneous and impractical. Some of our freedom fighters are still alive today, not to mention that back then men lived longer than today, for very obvious reasons.

        Accepting that Christ existed does not necessarily destroy your worldview, it simply means you have great respect for history as a field of study. Which I hope your worldview will not make you undermine.

        Did Pilate, Tiberius, Julius Caesar exist? They most certainly did, unless its another myth. Your continued denial is indeed A PERSONAL VIEW that we cant indeed satisfy.

        No one needs to DENY Christ existed because of What HE CLAIMED TO BE, unless if His existence standards as a possible challenge to certain worldviews, which obviously IT IS; competing plausible intelligent Christian worldview.

        Regards

        Victor Shikuku

        Like

      • J Neb
        June 9, 2016

        Who killed the contemporary of Jesus? Old age, deceases, brutal authorities, in fightings, wars etc. Owing to that, life expectancy around that time at about forty years. The Jewish-Roman war (AD 68-70) must have been a great disadvantage to the old people. Moreover, Most people in Jesus movement faced a lot of persecution. To say that they lived more than we do today is a bit of naivety.

        Did Pilate, Tiberius, Julius Caesar exist? YES. The existence of each of these are backed up by contemporary records (record made in their life by witnesses), artifacts, images in coins etc equal to what they are claimed to be. Jesus on the other hand has what? Nothing equivalent to Gospel claims. A claimed god who raised dead people, drew large crowds, had a-city-seizing trial, crucifixion characterized by earth quakes and darkness and passed through walls after raising from the dead and then ‘levitated to heaven’. All those events would only be notable decades later and would be so similar with myth and legends? Come on!

        If I gather enough to change my world view, I will not hesitate but change. Jesus was an ordinary man with an Idea which eventually caused him to be crucified, resurrection wasn’t necessary and didn’t happen. That is what remains when myths in the Gospels are ignored.

        Who has his history written 500 years and it is accurate. How do you know its accuracy? That beats logic.

        The gospels fails appreciably in accuracy because not only do they contradict themselves but also they err in geography and secular references. However, I have seen hypocrisies and fanatical fallacies in majority if apologetics that arguments becomes futile. People who never admit something right in their eyes just to protect their false beliefs.

        Liked by 1 person

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        June 9, 2016

        J Neb

        First, KEEP to the SUBJECT! Appealing to many issues mentioning them in passing (such as resurrections, miracles etc) is a normal for people who seem to attempt drift the subject away. They DONT STRENGTHEN YOUR CASE in the subject at hand. We are on Did Jesus exist or not… the claim previously was HE DID NOT, but now am hearing HE DID but was an ordinary man.

        Ideally, you are not listening to yourself. hear now what you are saying and not saying:

        1. First, Christ EXISTED and secondly he was that ORDINARY MAN. Which historian are you appealing to here and when did he live? Was he an eye witness? How did you know he existed?

        2. Again you add, his (Jesus) ideas caused him to be CRUCIFIED! Who crucified him and how did you know? Which historian are you backing his DEATH with?When did that historian live?

        3. Also, you fail to tell us AFTER he was Crucified what happened NEXT?

        4. Again you seem to refute there was DARKNESS after he was CRUCIFIED (as you admit he did)? Any historian you have who lived in that era who claims there WAS NO darkness contrary to EXISTING HISTORICAL EVIDENCE? Darkness cannot be hidden obviously.

        4. Again you appeal to Artifacts of Roman government officials and emperors which is very obvious for all SUCH LEADERS in any civilization then compare that with non-existence of an artifact of a carpenter’s “son” whose father was “unknown” and crucified with thieves as an outlaw and his followers persecuted. Really? If I had lived back then, I would have had a more honorable birth than Jesus, and my artifacts would still not exist, for OBVIOUS REASONS. That is what is called the fallacy of UNEQUAL ANALOGY.

        I guess you dint get my point on the 500 years. I mean many documents of ancient historians span over 500 years from the time the historian lived and when his manuscript is discovered yet its still accounted to be his writing and historically accurate. Try quote one historian and tell me when he lived and when the document you claim he wrote was discovered. The new testament would pass the test with flying colors.

        Claims that the new testaments contradict is unfounded. I mean lay out sound arguments not accusations. There are APPARENT CONTRADICTIONS not contradictions in essence. I surface reader will stumble at these, imagining that they contradicts, but a careful reader would see the UNDERLYING HARMONY.

        I can safely say that now that JESUS existed, the door is now OPENED for further inquiry on his personality, what he claimed to be, his fate and the power of his philosophy and worldview.

        Interesting indeed, that its freely admitted that Jesus was Crucified, NOT for what he did or what he did not do, but for HIS IDENTITY. Profound indeed.

        Regards

        Victor Shikuku

        Like

  133. Bachus
    June 2, 2016

    Hello Victor nice to hear from you,have to tell you you really are hilarious,you honestly believe that what you have stated are actual historical facts I’ve heard of Josephus,Eusebius pamphili,Eusebius of caesarea which are actual forgeries,but won’t go into that but let me repeat myself I DONT NEED TO BELIEVE,believe does not need evidence and that’s where the gaps are,because you can believe in anything,ask the Muslims who actually believe that christians will be the first to burn in eternal fire.whatever you believe does not necessarily have to be true.I was explaining how I was indoctrinated to Christianity from childhood and how fear made me not question anything by the way majority of christians belief of the eternal fire,I did read your responses but they are not addressing the issues anyway it’s pure gymnastics like christians like doing you cannot answer a question with a simple yes or no for example can you find theTen Commandments inThe Principles Of Ma’at simple yes or no?mind you the latter was 2000 years before the former.Let me try to make you understand me better.We perceive by the senses of touch,hear smell etc.So according to me We cannot perceive this so called creator within this natural realm,all you’ll do is start telling me that he is in a spiritual realm yet he supposedly communicated with prophets on one on one.It isn’t possible to comprehend this so called god because he has not availed himself to us,the only thing I see is a book published by the Holman bible publishers
    Telling of his existence,myself have never comprehended him.My argument is truth needs not to be explained,it should be known or understood,it does not need defence.To me We should all know of his existence and because we are debating tells of a gap which can be filled with proof,which brings me to my other point I said I know that I came from nature because that can be proven,so to me I don’t need to go beyond that because if I go beyond it will be speculation and belief,things that I rather stay away from,not because of fear but because there will be no solid conclusion only more questions will arise.
    Questions like if god was there with jesus and a ghost?what were they doing?and how can n they exist in nothingness?why create the universe which has trillions of galaxies only to zero in on one planet with 7billion people then when time comes will take a fraction of them to be with him and get rid of the rest,what was the point of creating such a vast universe what will happen to it because people will change to become spirits.Peace Bachus

    Like

  134. J Neb
    June 11, 2016

    I gave you the logic of my conclusion as to the existence of Jesus in an earlier reply and I have not contradicted myself at least on that. My point is that Jesus never did some of the things claimed by the Gospels.

    There is one compelling secular strong indicator of Jesus existence: death of his brother James. It is noted by Flavius Josephus. I hope you can see my ‘problem’ with the death of Jesus and its escape from notice by contemporary historians. The same Josephus indicates that he undertook to study the available sects of Judaism and he names them (Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes) and fails to mention Jesus movement that would transform to Christianity. That strengthens my earlier hypothesis that Jesus movement was too small to catch attention, even 30 years after his alleged Jesus mission, it had not gathered enough momentum to be noticed.

    Execution by crucifixion was an ordinary sentence to capital offenders around that time, many offender would be crucified without much ado. However, the execution of Jesus, if what the gospels describe is something to go by, would have captured the attention of at least Seneca the Younger, this in particular because he lived in Jerusalem by the time. Issue of a crucified god, with a larger-than-life trial and darkness and earthquakes and resurrection… None of these does he notice. Why? It’s a non issue as you claim? Because you strongly believe in what you believe?

    Like

  135. J Neb
    June 11, 2016

    I gave you the logic of my conclusion as to the existence of Jesus in an earlier reply and I have not contradicted myself at least on that. My point is that Jesus exists but never did extraordinary things claimed by the Gospels: miracles, reading minds, addressing large crowds*, darkness, earthquake, resurrection, levitation… If these happened the secular world would have noted them down.

    There is one compelling secular strong indicator of Jesus existence: death of his brother James. It is noted by Flavius Josephus. I hope you can see my ‘problem’ with the death of Jesus and its escape from notice by contemporary historians.

    The same Josephus indicates that he undertook to study the available sects of Judaism and he names them (Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes) and fails to mention Jesus movement that would transform to Christianity. That strengthens my earlier hypothesis that Jesus movement was too small to catch attention, even 30 years after his alleged Jesus mission, it had not gathered enough momentum to be noticed.

    Execution by crucifixion was an ordinary sentence to capital offenders around that time, many offender would be crucified without much ado. However, the execution of Jesus, if what the gospels describe is something to go by, would have captured the attention of at least Seneca the Younger, this in particular because he lived in Jerusalem by the time. Issue of a crucified god, with a larger-than-life trial and darkness and earthquakes and resurrection… None of these does he notice. Why? It’s a non issue as you claim? Because you strongly believe in what you believe?

    Like

    • Hakuna Mungu
      June 19, 2016

      Bravo bro, for keeping your sanity intact while answering the christians. They purposely choose not to ignore logic, as to keep their delusion and hallucinations real. Freedom from religion and God bondage is surely the beginning of WISDOM. I am so thrilled to know of this society, am currently not based in kenya, but i do visit regularly. I am more than happy to join your society, being in the midst of like minds, its really a breathe of fresh air, especially when bombarded with religious crowds during my visits home. I look forward to making new friends. Keep the fire burning my friends

      Like

      • Desmond
        June 20, 2016

        Sounds like you’re having a religious experience there Hakuna! All flushed with elation at finding a fellowship of non-believers. It’s interesting, communities are usually formed by people with a shared belief…this is a community of people with a shared unbelief! I guess non-believers need religious communion too. Or what do you think Hakuna?

        P.S. You have a daring avatar name by the way… it leaves no doubt!

        Like

    • Hakuna Mungu
      June 19, 2016

      i meant purposely choose to ignore logic

      Like

  136. Patrick
    June 14, 2016

    AIK [was, not is] formally registered as a Society under the Societies Act (Cap. 108), laws of Kenya. lol🙂

    Like

  137. zabuni
    June 25, 2016

    Interesting thoughts here but matters religion will be highly emotive and biased.Just let everyone be with their own beliefs as long as their is harmonious co-existence and respect for each other!

    Like

  138. sospeter
    July 18, 2016

    Here on earth you have made God to be your foe but in hell your very conscience will persecute you yes you have denied Him here on earth but in hell you will not do you will confess Him there but it will be too late. tell us who created the heavens, the earth and everything else. your desire to lead a sinful live without God will be your worm to torment you that day is near so please repent your sins and accept the pardoning of the Lord

    Liked by 1 person

  139. John Adams
    July 18, 2016

    “Atheism is not a religion, a philosophy, a worldview, or anything similar. It is not the conviction that there are no gods, ghosts, angels, etc. Rather, it is the absence of a belief that these things are real. Atheism is nothing more than the lack of belief in a god or gods. It is the position that deities do not exist.”

    Very nice.

    Except that after saying all that, you go ahead and talk about registering a society bla bla… A society. So lets go back to this —> a religion, a philosophy, a wordview, or something similar. Because you cannot have a society if you don’t have that. If you don’t have a common conviction (that there are no gods), if you have no philosophy (that state and religion should be separate), or worldview (secularism and ‘freedom of conscience’).

    In short, I have never seen such a blatant set of contradictions all on one screen page

    Like

  140. Erastus Ouma
    August 17, 2016

    I believe in atheism, I need your contacts.

    Like

    • sospeter
      September 21, 2016

      Believing or not believing in God, Ghosts or even religion e.t.c that doesn’t
      make God non existence God is real whichever way we choose to. but the problem is that time will come when we all have to appear before Him at that time it will be too late to admit that He lives. consider the birds of air, the beast of forest the seasons look at the mountains and ask them whenever there is God and they will shout at you that our God creator of heaven and earth lives for ever more praise be to his Name.

      Like

  141. cindy
    August 30, 2016

    hey . . how does one join . . is there a site for that or what . . am glad you have this association

    Like

    • Harry
      August 30, 2016

      Registration is KShs. 527. Send this via MPESA to 0720549512, then text me your email address, postal address, full names and ID number to atheistsinkenya@gmail.com or text 0717110066. We shall then send you an invitation email. Thanks for your interest.

      Like

  142. David muturi
    September 1, 2016

    am David 21 years old and a freethinker I beleive nature has it all currently I dont have a website I beleive in nature and its way of doing things directly reflects nature in life

    Like

    • Desmond
      September 2, 2016

      So you believe in nature? Is that not being religious?

      Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        September 2, 2016

        Hey David,

        How did natute create a perceiving, analyzing, transmitting and working brain? Nature seems to be intelligent than man! Is this sufficient to be believed?

        Like

  143. boom
    September 9, 2016

    One Question to ask with love.
    why do you people put more emphasis on God and not Satan? does that mean when you solve a solution in certain situations the answer you get is negative or put more emphasis on negative not considering positive in scientifically manner way?
    as I concluded, putting in worldly nature or scientifically the word instinct:- as you know it’s a feeling that makes you do something or believe that something is TRUE I repeat TRUE, even though, it is not base on facts or reason.
    So in spiritual life, the word INSTINCT change into SOUL therefore here comes human cell organ’s controlled or feed by hormones developing different behaviours or characters.
    so once again I’m not correct anyone or defending.
    it’s just what we feed our souls or INSTINCT matters a lot so sio kupenda kwa msee we have freedom to choose but not kuvutia msee or bring confusion. Human mind is funny that’s why the say no one is perfect.

    Like

  144. kinyo
    September 10, 2016

    i have seen so many claims here inconsistencies in the religious beleifs in God
    . so now lets point out the inconsistecies in athiesm
    =>so you dont personally know how you came to be by that i mean you were not responsible for it , nothing about your being a live human has nything to do with you ,you found yourself a foetus and later an infant and now well you get my drift.
    so you pass on that question over to your parents and say they made me ,but did they ? i mean did your parents actually “MAKE” you all they did is cause the egg carried by one meet with the sperm carried by the other, did they make the sperm or the egg you say yes ofcourse their bodies made the sperm and egg but did they
    “MAKE” the sperm and egg none of them even know how it happend it just did,
    so you are clearly here and alive and well i hope but your parents had very little knowledge in the art of making humans apart form the act the brought out the fusing of the agg and sperm no knowledge past that neither did you grand parents,all the way back to wherever man came from which according to you if i got it correctly from reading through since its not God you say EVOLUTON did this,it made man and woman but let me get this a spontaneous whatever it was that happend, just happen to spontaneously
    manifest a sperm and them also spontaneously just happen to manifest an egg in a completely seperate entity both spontaneous and the two just happen to be the two that are needed to make you , spontaneously cmon even mathematics has proven that the probalility of such a chance sponteniuos event is mind boggling thats why they called them theories not fact meaning this is what they think happend .and by they ill ad add you too its what you think happend.
    and further more science quantum (which you trust so much as it is sooo logical) has proven that the circumstances that brought about the big bang has a probality that is imposible without some form of causing source to it ,science says it does not know the cuasing source but
    relgion says it does and gave the name God to that source of the cause
    so i think atheism is this regard should say WE DONT KNOW if God exists instead of a
    we know he does not , how do you know he does you dont even know how you came to be leave alone think to question the existence or non- existence of another and for all intents and purposes more powerfull and greater being

    and the second one i saw was maybe ALIENS did it.
    so you mean beings not of this earth came and seeded the earth with what we call nature and man included OMG !!!!!???? boss ? isnt this what religion says happend too in the bible (genesis) and the quran too ? i mean beings not of this earth made man and all that is on earth cmon we may disagree on the how they did it and how they looked but lets be honest none of us were there so lets now urgue over that .

    Like

  145. Gabriel
    September 10, 2016

    I was a christian in my younger days due to my environment and earlier influences but later on i started asking questions and reasoning rationally…and it became clear as crystal…religion is simply culture and habit that we grow into and acquire just like food and other behaviors…thats it.I since became an atheist and i have never felt more free in thought, lifestyle and convictions.My world view also became very clear and balanced and not colored by religious dogmas.i am definitely joining AIK..count me in guys!

    Like

    • Harry
      September 11, 2016

      Welcome Gabriel!

      Like

    • VICTOR SHIKUKU
      September 12, 2016

      Hallo Gabriel,

      Its quite possible that you were a Christian but not thinking rationally as you admit. The problem is not with Christianity of course. There are many intelligent rational Christians.

      The environment of course equally plays significant role. I mean you are now seeking the society of atheists, its an environment as well.

      But most importantly, I have not seen what is irrational in your view about your past belief and what is now rational in your new found belief. In brief, kindly post for me the top on your list of what you considered irrational and what tops your list as most rational.

      Regards

      Victor Shikuku

      Like

  146. margaret mutegi
    September 11, 2016

    So sorry to watch one of your videos where all you young people behave like you are under the influence of narcotics. By trying to enroll people to join that sick concept of atheism in Kenya I am strongly convinced you are idle and need help to understand that there is good and evil. Stop radicalizing people. You may be worse than these Muslim jihadists. You could also start advocating beheading any one who is not of your sick minds. Meantime come out of your madness and seek God’s forgiveness. You are not the first nor last to try this in our country Kenya. I am sorry for your parents

    Like

  147. Brian
    September 11, 2016

    I’m not surprised man for all this is just a repetition or a fulfilment of bible prophecies that “perilous times shall come and men shall be ungodly”. What more? There we are!

    Belief in God is anchored upon the Bible, where do atheists anchor their believes?

    Like

  148. Sawa. Let's reason this out
    September 13, 2016

    To arrive at a consensus, which if we sincerely want to, I believe is possible I suggest the following sequence of answered questions. We will be free to (still) believe what we want after the discussion.

    Okay, let us reason this out step by step.
    Step 1: Is there a god?

    Step 2. If step 1 is yes, then Can he/she/it be one/many/male/female? What is the nature of this (if existent, god)?

    Step 3. Who is this god. Where do we find him. Quran/Vedas/ Voodoo/ Yoga/Bible/Nature. Where?

    First discussion point (step 1): Is there a god in the first place.
    My suggested, most fundamental question to tackle this is “where did we come from?”. If we popped up spontaneously, and self morphed into humans and nature and universes then there! There is no god. We don’t need step 2 or 3.

    So people, let us discuss step one. No Bible, No deep trenched belief. Just evidence/science. Do not hold on to your position. Just be objective. Let reason together. WHERE DID WE COME FROM. —20 marks

    Like

    • VICTOR SHIKUKU
      September 13, 2016

      Dear Sawa,

      Good questions. However, lets note that science IS NOT the only criteria for evidence. As you can see, when you ask where did we come from, that is a HISTORICAL question and science cant repeat history. Therefore we can only amass segments of evidence from SCIENCE combined with evidences from OTHER DISCIPLINES of study. Of course to LIMIT evidence to science ONLY is to lose objectivity before inquiry.

      I will give my view in segments.

      PART 1:

      Where we came from requires an appreciation of what WE ARE and what WE ARE NOT.

      1. We ARE NOT just a big molecule, some macro-molecule

      2. We ARE intelligent agents

      3. We contain INFORMATION with information storage, retrieving, sending, interpreting and actualizing systems

      4. We possess IMMATERIAL features, like a MIND AND THOUGHTS

      5. We acknowledge LOGIC and perceive contradictions

      6. We are MORAL agents

      The list is may get even longer concerning what we are. But now, the LAW OF CAUSALITY requires that for every EFFECT there must be a SUFFICIENT CAUSE.

      From KNOWN SCIENCE, The CAUSE for INFORMATION with storage, retrieval, sending and interpreting systems can not be NATURAL LAWS. Laws (gravity, coulombic laws, thermodynamic laws, magnetism laws….) don’t create information.

      From what is known and repeatedly observed, all sorts of information can be traced back to an INTELLIGENT SENDER, that is the SUFFICIENT cause. Laws don’t create information necessary to have this website, for example. Anyone can safely conclude, without necessarily knowing from where this website came from, that there is an INTELLIGENT AGENT behind it because there is INFORMATION inbuilt in it.

      Therefore, its scientifically reasonable and sound logically and consistent with experience to attribute the HUNDRED MILLION PAGES OF ENCYCLOPAEDIA BRITANICA WORTH INFORMATION found in only a single-celled bacteria to INTELLIGENCE, not to mention what WE ARE compared to bacteria.

      So, to answer IN THE NEGATIVE, where did we come from, we can safely say NOT FROM LAWS and IN THE POSITIVE from INTELLIGENCE

      Regards

      Victor Shikuku

      Like

      • Sawa. Let's reason this out
        September 13, 2016

        Dear Victor,
        About history as a source, at least for the first question, (Is there a god? and where did we come from), I believe it would not exist if we had this conversation before history i.e. if we ask this 10,000 years before now.

        Your argument is valid though, re:intelligence comes from intelligent agents and not from nature. It reminds me of the the theory of of intelligent design and irreducible minimum ( http://www.intelligentdesign.org/whatisid.php ) which Darwinist should check out before they speak. It tears Darwinism to pieces.

        However, Victor, are you saying it is IMPOSSIBLE for intelligence to spontaneously occur without an agent? What if it is only the good DNA that survives because it has intelligence (assuming the first ever strand of DNA was ‘put’ there just like that…)Sounds silly. I take back my question

        Anyway. the floor is open. Where did we come from?

        Like

      • VICTOR SHIKUKU
        September 17, 2016

        Dear Sawa,

        PART 2

        Let me post add a few points/observations on where did we come from question:

        I have highlighted, and you submitted to it as reasonable and consistent, that information systems comes from intelligence. Is the DNA an exception? Notice what you are requesting us to do:

        1. To Assume all the observed evidence, from science, archeological studies, experience that all information systems known all are traceable to intelligence

        2. To Assume that DNA is the EXCEPTION. But the reasons for this exception are not provided.

        It seems to me here, the problem IS NOT the rationality and consistency of appealing to intelligence for coded information systems but rather a DISCOMFORT with where such reference would LEAD TO!

        But Science, I may ADD, should be the search for truth WHATEVER that truth might be. Also notice that NATURAL SELECTION is NEVER TAUGHT in information Technology (IT), Computer programming and Engineering courses at whatever level of Education.

        Why is this? Because the professionals in such fields as IT well know that NATURAL LAWS in whatever combination and permutation, added with CHANCE and random changes and given ENOUGH TIME and with all possible OPTIMISM will never give rise to a functional information system. This is why Darwinism has no place in IT.

        Also, archaeological studies would dissolve in oblivion if all the artifacts, inscriptions and codes attributed to ANCIENT CIVILIZATION (intelligence) were after all products of laws writing on clay, papyrus, walls and so forth! Intelligence is known to be the only reasonable deduction, and on this basis ARCHAEOLOGY exists, becomes DOABLE and a MEANINGFUL branch of study.

        But its agreeable that its ridiculous to compare any developed information system with DNA. DNA is infinitely superior. As Bill Gates puts it:

        “DNA is like a computer PROGRAM but far, FAR MORE ADVANCED than any software ever CREATED”. (Caps is mine).

        The conclusion is simple, where did we come from? We were DESIGNED or CREATED from a Moral Intelligent agent.

        Regards

        Victor Shikuku

        Like

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